From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #148 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Wednesday, October 9 2002 Volume 04 : Number 148 Today's Subjects: ----------------- b/1st 2 ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: b/from below it will devour... [Linda Lodwick ] b/same time... ["Donald G. Keller" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:11:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/1st 2 Just some random remarks on the first two episodes while waiting for the third tonight. I actually wrote a substantial post about the 2nd episode, but accidentally hit "cancel" instead of "send," was too tired to rewrite it, and never got back to it. First, some more comments about the premiere. On re-viewings, one cute joke I liked: one of the "ghosts" grating, "You have your sister to thank for this," Buffy bursts in and bowls him over, Dawn says "Thanks, sis." The speculation that the principal is from the Watcher's Council is interesting; here's an even wilder one from another list I'm on: he's from Faerie. His name is Robin Wood (Robin Goodfellow? Puck? =Midsummer Night's Dream=?). The fact that he's vegetarian fits with that somehow. (But obviously he isn't aware that DoubleMeat burgers aren't meat...) Adding to this for me is that in Laurell "Anita Blake Vampire Hunter" Hamilton's other series about a princess of Faerie (=A Kiss of Shadows= and its sequel), one of her guards is a large black man. It would be a new twist. Re the Big Bad finale scene, what I noticed, among other things, is that it featured the villains from each season, in reverse order (Warren for the 6th season--when Willow might have been the choice--and Drusilla for the 2nd season--rather than Angel). Mistakes noted; were there mistakes in the spiel of the other three (Glory, Mayor, Drusilla)? Not that I noticed. On the whole what each of them said captured their personalities strikingly well in a short compass--particularly Glory's egotism and bloodthirstiness, Adam's "where I want her" and the Mayor's folkiness. Qute a scene. And I noticed only when I watched the credits for the 2nd episode (I always fast-forward through on rewatching) that the shot of Buffy at the very end is It's The Power Buffy from that scene (replacing Robot Buffy from last year, which always cracked me up). Speaking of robots...I was paging through the huge 2nd edition of =The Girl's Got Bite= (one of the unofficial guides--it has episode guides through the 6th season and all three of =Angel=) and ran across a fact I don't remember knowing before: April the robot was originally supposed to be played by Britney Spears! Well, Joss =did= say he had a plan on how to use her on the show... I imagine Dawn and Xander have watched =Twilight Zone= together at some point, thus her awareness of "To Serve Man." Berni: Keep us posted on your research on Christian symbolism. Might make a good essay at some point. I agree that the forces of good don't seem to be particularly complex, even on =Angel=. On to the 2nd episode. Meredith, it's All Your Fault: the opening reminded me first of =Alias=--I only thought of =Run Lola Run= (which I've never seen) later. =Very= intriguing that this time they present it as Buffy's dream (kind of the way they did flashbacks to other Slayers in the movie: first as a standalone, then as a dream). Chilling moment in Buffy's bedroom. It brings up the thought that Faith may be having dreams, too; and that this issue is what is going to get Faith out of jail and to Sunnydale. (Can't wait.) I went back and looked at that coffeehouse scene, and I'm =almost certain= that isn't Joss Whedon. Similar hair, maybe. (What I noticed the first time is that the guy isn't quite playing that guitar.) The duo has a credit at the end of the episode. Nice job with Scary Dawn talking to Spike. I think Dawn is growing up; maybe she'll become less unpopular with viewers. (I think she's an OK character, myself.) Not sure if Nancy =will= be back; could go either way. I liked the contrast of her attitude with the rest of the gang. But at least they didn't kill her off. (But why did Worm-Demon Boy only menace her, rather than devouring her?) I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more stuff at school this episode, but there's plenty of time for that. They have other fish to fry. Like Spike. Heavy stuff. That last scene lasted a full =five minutes=. A little hard to follow, but well-done. Let me get this straight: 1) he's still a vampire 2) he has his soul back 3) he still has the chip. Triple whammy there. I thought, last episode, that he was scratching his chest to get his =soul= out, but Deirdre disagreed: she thought he was after his heart. And it appears that she's right: didn't he say something about his heart beating? (But vampire hearts don't beat...) I'm with Meredith about what happened last season: I believe when went to the demon to be "like I was before," he was still looking to get the chip out, and the demon crossed him up and gave him his soul back instead. We never saw much of Angel right after he got his soul back, so what's going on, I think, is new territory. Here's my take: when we saw him in the school basement, and again in the church, I think his "soulful" personality was dominant (call it William); most of the 2nd episode, when he seemed his "usual self," the still-resident demon was dominant (call it Spike). I think we've got a split personality thing going on here: mad William and cold sober Spike. Angel, obviously, over time managed to achieve a balance of the two (soul and demon); William/Spike is still trying to find his equilibrium. Much of interest to come, starting tonight... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 08:31:35 -0500 From: Linda Lodwick Subject: Re: b/from below it will devour... I'm delurking to pass on some information provided by Jane Espenson and Joss Whedon after "Grave" aired. These quotes are taken from an essay about why Spike went to Africa. The complete essay can be found at http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html . Begin excerpt:. "Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02 Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?" Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist." At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02 As the above quotes indicate, Spike went to Africa because he wanted to get a soul. He got exactly what he asked for. End excerpt. To me, the fact that an "evil, souless thing" can wish for redemption and seek out a soul has serious implications in the Buffyverse. This is more interesting than if Spike wanted the chip out and was double-crossed. Remember, Angelus never wanted a soul, he was cursed with it. meredith wrote: > Hi, > > Kathleen responded: > >> Which is why I am wondering about Spike's claim that he was trying to >> get his >> soul back. >> >> Could it be that he's convinced himself that that was his intention >> since he >> didn't succeed in what he really set out to do? > > > That is certainly possible. He is so addled at this point, it's hard > to take pretty much anything he says at face value. > > > ============================================== > Meredith Tarr > New Haven, CT USA > mailto:meth@smoe.org > http://www.smoe.org/meth > ============================================== > Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series > http://muzak.smoe.org > ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 19:15:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/1st 2 and slight spoiler for 3. > Speaking of robots...I was paging through the huge > 2nd edition of =The > Girl's Got Bite= (one of the unofficial guides--it > has episode guides > through the 6th season and all three of =Angel=) and > ran across a fact I > don't remember knowing before: April the robot was > originally supposed to > be played by Britney Spears! Well, Joss =did= say he > had a plan on how to > use her on the show... I've read that somewhere. Surprised it never came up here. > > I imagine Dawn and Xander have watched =Twilight > Zone= together at some > point, thus her awareness of "To Serve Man." Could have come up after watching one of The Simpsons Halloween episodes, too. They did a wicked parody of that episode. > =Very= intriguing that this time they present it as > Buffy's dream (kind of > the way they did flashbacks to other Slayers in the > movie: first as a > standalone, then as a dream). Chilling moment in > Buffy's bedroom. It > brings up the thought that Faith may be having > dreams, too; and that this > issue is what is going to get Faith out of jail and > to Sunnydale. (Can't > wait.) Great speculation. > Nice job with Scary Dawn talking to Spike. I think > Dawn is growing up; > maybe she'll become less unpopular with viewers. (I > think she's an OK > character, myself.) Some of that tonight as well. She's much more likeable this season. > I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more > stuff at school this > episode, but there's plenty of time for that. They > have other fish to fry. > Looks like next week is school-heavy. And now I'll try (but not too hard) to get Willow/Anya out of my head. BTW, Narl is going down in the history of this show as the creepiest villain ever with the possible exception of The Gentlemen. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 01:33:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/same time... ...same place. Thus the episode title. Verdict: wow. And now some spoiler space. Keith Topping, who writes British paperback unauthorized episode guides, has an "Awesome!" heading for high points of each episode. This one gets two "Awesome!"s from me: The virtuoso scene where Spike is talking to Willow =and= Xander & Buffy, who can't see each other. The final scene, pure =Buffy= emotional ending, between Buffy and Willow. Especially Willow saying to Buffy that Buffy is the kind of person who =has= to say things (like that she suspected Willow). And Dawn the Poseable Paralytic was an absolute howl (especially her recovery). Good to see Dawn enthusiastically Scoobying. Girl's got a future. Probably =the= most disgusting demon ever. (Played by one of the Gentlemen, by the way.) Something I mentioned in my accidentally-canceled post and forgot until now: I've been noticing a few conversations, like Spike says he's not there to atone, just a guy who can lend a hand; Willow doubting she would be accepted back and Giles saying she might not be wanted, but she'll be needed; and then tonight Willow saying it's nice to be forgiven, too bad she's got so much to be forgiven for; all sounding like pre-echos of conversations with Faith when she returns. (Yes, yes, I've got Faith on the brain; maybe I've got stuff to be forgiven for, too.) Very good use of Anya this episode. Interesting interplay between Anya and Willow, seeming to come to a hesitant understanding. (Another big laugh: Willow saying "quick like a....really quick.") And the parallel scenes were just =spooooky=. I love that stuff. I picked up =something= right away, because I noted that there was more detail in the movement of the extras than usual (why were we supposed to =notice= them, I wondered?), of course because we needed to realize when we were seeing the scene replayed. And the second parallel, in Buffy's house, there was the handy clock to give us a clue. =Wonderful= dissolve (is that the term?) from the three sitting on the couch to Willow lying on it. Just splendid all around. (So did Willow's spell fade because she had been humbledby a taste of her own medicine--flaying--as someone on another list has said, or--my idea--because she realized her friends were there for her, and she was therefore ready to see them?) Spike didn't seem as labile this episode. Is he coming to equilibrium? Question: was the demon invisible? I couldn't tell if people could see him or not. (Anya could.) Which reminds me that my first thought about the "no see-ums" (as Buffy put it) was that demons (Anya and Spike) could see Willow, but humans couldn't. Turned out to be more interesting. Plenty for now. What a fine start to the season so far (and every episode with a tremendous final scene). P.S. I almost lost =this= post, too; I've gotten out of the habit of writing posts in Word and then dumping them to e-mail (instead writing right in the e-mail buffer), and I misaddressed it to stillpoint instead of stillpt, and I've never gotten my system to copy my sent e-mails...but the bounce message had my text in it, so I was able to laboriously write it off to my drive and re-dump it. Sometimes I'm such a klutz... ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #148 *****************************