From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #117 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, August 12 2002 Volume 04 : Number 117 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: t/narnia etc. ["David S. Bratman" ] Other [Todd Huff ] Re: t/narnia etc. [Joseph Zitt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:35:02 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 03:52 PM 8/11/2002 , Meredith wrote: >Ah, ok ... something in what Don said led me to believe that the original >ordering was supposed to have _The Magician's Nephew_ at the end. _Near_ the end. MN, though taking place first, was written and published sixth - after everything else except _The Last Battle_. That's a big difference. Only two changes are required to correct the publisher's order to the real order: 1) take MN out of first place and put it 6th; 2) take _The Horse and His Boy_ out of 3rd place and put it 5th. >>What was in the Garner boxed set? _The Weirdstone of Brisingamen_ and >>_The Moon of Gomrath_, surely; what else? > >_Elidor_. Which is in my Top Three Favorite Books Ever, along with _A >Wrinkle In Time_ and _The House With A Clock In Its Walls_. As Moon is a sequel to Weirdstone, but Elidor is unconnected, that makes an odd 3-volume set. My enthusiasm for Elidor is not quite as great as yours, but I consider it and The Owl Service to be Garner's masterpieces; and Owl gets the praise it deserves while Elidor is sadly neglected. >>I voted for Shrek. > >Hmmm. I saw _Shrek_, and didn't much care for it. It had its entertaining >moments (in particular the slags on Disney World), but didn't really wow me. The title credit sequence was really off-putting, but after that I was totally charmed all the way through. I'm particularly croggled that I liked a movie featuring both Mike Myers and Eddie Murphy, whom I normally detest. I voted for Buffy second, if that helps. My reaction to the LOTR movie was the inverse of Donald's: 20% delight, 80% dismay. At 06:47 PM 8/11/2002 , Gayle wrote: > I have not read the books, only seen an animated version of LWW on TV once, >which I am sure was totally watered down, but =I= picked up on the Christian >allegory halfway through the cartoon. I told my friend who was watching with >me, "Wait a minute! I get it. The lion is Christ. I know what's going to >happen." That too is a common reaction, as I should have also said. I suppose it's more obvious in the film, but many pick it up from the books too. I already knew this stuff - not just that Lewis was a Christian writer, but that there was strong Christian symbolism in Narnia - before I read the books, so I can't tell how I'd have reacted fresh. All I can say is that, while Lewis intended Aslan's sacrifice and redemption (at the end of LWW) as a way of explaining Christ's for young readers, and bringing it fresh without the baggage associated with the original; but this non-Christian found Lewis's version entirely strained and arbitrary even on its own terms. >She didn't believe me, but the story unfolded exactly as I'd >predicted. Okay, if I hadn't been familiar with C.S. Lewis's name and known >he was a Christian writer, I might not have picked up on it so quickly, but >then later on when I mentioned something about the Christian allegory to a >friend who had read the Narnia books, she wouldn't believe me even though she >knew that Lewis was a Christian writer. She insisted that even though he >wrote theology books, his religion had nothing to do with his fiction. Now this I have never encountered before - someone who doesn't recognize the allegory even after it's pointed out. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:49:38 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. In a message dated 8/12/02 9:35:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dbratman@stanford.edu writes: << Now this I have never encountered before - someone who doesn't recognize the allegory even after it's pointed out. >> Well, she was, how to put it, alienated from Christianity, and I think she didn't want to see it -- it would have spoiled her enjoyment of the story. I didn't go into detail explaining it, either. I just assumed that everyone would have realized that the lion symbolized Christ and was surprised she denied it because it seemed so obvious. Still, she was the first and only person I even mentioned it to, so I realized that the Christian allegory was not universally recognized. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:50:45 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 08:03 PM 8/11/2002 , Joseph wrote: >"David S. Bratman" wrote: > >> Tolkien. I'm taking a survey every time I see that other spelling (a >> very common error): what made you think it's spelled that way? > >My hunch is that people, continually unsure about the ordering of "e" >and "i" in words, unconsciously connect it with the many common >German-derived names (Klein, Bernstein, Fishbein, etc) that end in >"ein", though few might consciously make the connection. Perhaps, but all those German names are pronounced with a long I. I've never heard anybody pronounce Tolkien with a long I. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:15:06 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 09:50:45AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 08:03 PM 8/11/2002 , Joseph wrote: > >"David S. Bratman" wrote: > > > >> Tolkien. I'm taking a survey every time I see that other spelling (a > >> very common error): what made you think it's spelled that way? > > > >My hunch is that people, continually unsure about the ordering of "e" > >and "i" in words, unconsciously connect it with the many common > >German-derived names (Klein, Bernstein, Fishbein, etc) that end in > >"ein", though few might consciously make the connection. > > Perhaps, but all those German names are pronounced with a long I. I've > never heard anybody pronounce Tolkien with a long I. I have heard it, frequently. And I've also heard the German names frequently pronounced with a long E (particularly Bernstein) -- even by people saying their own names. I suspect, also, that the pronunciation of Tolkien with the long I comes from the same sort of overcompensation, in the face of a somewhat confusing rule, that causes people to say "The presents were for him and I." - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:31:24 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 11:15 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >> Perhaps, but all those German names are pronounced with a long I. I've >> never heard anybody pronounce Tolkien with a long I. > >I have heard it, frequently. Where? In 35 years of talking about Tolkien with all manner of folks, not once have I heard the name mispronounced this way. >I suspect, also, that the pronunciation of Tolkien with the long I >comes from the same sort of overcompensation, in the face of a >somewhat confusing rule, that causes people to say "The presents were >for him and I." So it should properly be "The presents were for him and E"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:26:32 -0700 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:31:24 -0700 "David S. Bratman" wrote: > At 11:15 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > >> Perhaps, but all those German names are pronounced with a long I. > >I've> never heard anybody pronounce Tolkien with a long I. > > > >I have heard it, frequently. > > Where? In 35 years of talking about Tolkien with all manner of folks, > not once have I heard the name mispronounced this way. Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:02:21 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to geographical location. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:33:38 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:02:21PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > > >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. > > Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to > geographical location. Newsflash: in the absence of other context, it tends to. If you meant to say something else, please state it clearly. It may disappoint you to learn that some people are *not* telepaths. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:47:11 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. Apparently they're idiots instead. Sorry I bothered you. At 02:33 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:02:21PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >> >> >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. >> >> Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to >> geographical location. > >Newsflash: in the absence of other context, it tends to. If you meant >to say something else, please state it clearly. It may disappoint you >to learn that some people are *not* telepaths. > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:54:44 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:47:11PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > Apparently they're idiots instead. Sorry I bothered you. I answered your question in good faith. If you meant something else, please ask it. Unless, of course, you feel, as you are exhibiting, that insults are a proper response to information offered on this list. > At 02:33 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: > >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:02:21PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > >> > >> >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. > >> > >> Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to > >> geographical location. > > > >Newsflash: in the absence of other context, it tends to. If you meant > >to say something else, please state it clearly. It may disappoint you > >to learn that some people are *not* telepaths. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:10:02 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. Look, fella, you insulted my intelligence. I'll offer you a deal: don't treat ME like an idiot, I won't call you one. "Good faith" indeed. At 02:54 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:47:11PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> Apparently they're idiots instead. Sorry I bothered you. > >I answered your question in good faith. If you meant something else, >please ask it. > >Unless, of course, you feel, as you are exhibiting, that insults are a >proper response to information offered on this list. > >> At 02:33 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: >> >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:02:21PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> >> At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >> >> >> >> >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. >> >> >> >> Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to >> >> geographical location. >> > >> >Newsflash: in the absence of other context, it tends to. If you meant >> >to say something else, please state it clearly. It may disappoint you >> >to learn that some people are *not* telepaths. > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:08:13 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 02:10:02PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > Look, fella, you insulted my intelligence. I see no evidence of having done so. > I'll offer you a deal: don't > treat ME like an idiot, I won't call you one. "Good faith" indeed. That is the standard social agreement by which I was operating. Time to keep up your side. > At 02:54 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: > >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:47:11PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> Apparently they're idiots instead. Sorry I bothered you. > > > >I answered your question in good faith. If you meant something else, > >please ask it. > > > >Unless, of course, you feel, as you are exhibiting, that insults are a > >proper response to information offered on this list. > > > >> At 02:33 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: > >> >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:02:21PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> >> At 11:26 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC. > >> >> > >> >> Oh, that's so helpful. Newsflash: "where" does not always refer to > >> >> geographical location. > >> > > >> >Newsflash: in the absence of other context, it tends to. If you meant > >> >to say something else, please state it clearly. It may disappoint you > >> >to learn that some people are *not* telepaths. > > > >-- > >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | > >| http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | > >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | > >| Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:30:50 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 03:08 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 02:10:02PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> Look, fella, you insulted my intelligence. > >I see no evidence of having done so. How clueless can you get? > >> I'll offer you a deal: don't >> treat ME like an idiot, I won't call you one. "Good faith" indeed. > >That is the standard social agreement by which I was operating. Bull, fella. Stop insulting me. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:32:28 -0700 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:31:24 -0700 "David S. Bratman" wrote: > At 11:15 AM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > >> Perhaps, but all those German names are pronounced with a long I. > >I've> never heard anybody pronounce Tolkien with a long I. > > > >I have heard it, frequently. > > Where? In 35 years of talking about Tolkien with all manner of folks, > not once have I heard the name mispronounced this way. Taking another guess at what your message might have asked if stated clearly: the most significant factor, IIRC (not having been taking notes), is that the people were from far outside academe or SF fandom, usually less "educated" folks who had come across Tolkien on their own. They were also the people who tended to worry about getting things right, and prone to "him and I" wording. A more frequent confusion (of which I myself am not sure after some 30-odd years in fandom, etc) is whether it's pronounced "Tol-keen", "Tol-kee-in", "Tul-keen", or "Tul-kee-in". I've even had courses on his writings where the professors pronounced it differently from one another. Some also put the accent on the second syllable, but I'm *pretty* sure it's on the first. I surprised that you have not encountered this, and wonder what this might imply about our circles of contact. - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:43:06 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. It certainly sounded to me as though Joseph answered the question that was asked in good faith, and, like Joseph, I have no idea what other question was being asked. In the linguistics world, when someone asks "where" a particular variant pronunciation is used, it practically always means geographical location. In cases in which a dialect group is not defined by location, a term other than or modifying "where" is likely to be used. Since David was asking precisely a question about where a certain pronunciation is used, I am baffled by how else the question might have been interpreted. Is anyone else on this list besides David able to read David's mind, or are we all idiots? Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:16:13 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. As Gayle observes, many variant pronunciations, and even whole dialects, are not geographically based. There are plenty of questions, even linguistic ones, to which "where" can best be answered other than with the name of a state, or some other geographic entity on that level. "Where do people talk in Black dialect?" "In the ghetto." (A type of area, rather than a geographic location.) "Where do people say 'skiffy'?" "In certain circles of science-fiction fandom." A linguist ought to know that the meanings of "where" include "in whatever place, situation, or respect in which [something happens]." In the second place, I _did_ in the first place mean "where" to mean a geographical location -- if a geographical location had been an adequate answer. For instance, Joseph might have said, "For some reason they seem to say that in the Jersey suburbs, the area of Jersey dialect. I've never heard it any place else." Had that been the case, that would have been an adequate geographical answer. But since from Joseph's actual answer, "Primarily in New Jersey. Also in Texas, and, I believe, in DC," it should have been obvious, even to him, that no geographical concentration was involved. To pretend, in that case, that this was an adequate answer, is an insult to the intelligence of the question. In that case, the "where" needs to be answered in some other way. Human beings are not robots, and should be capable of figuring out when one type of answer is not a helpful response to a question, especially after they've been told it's not helpful. To respond to that by saying "Human beings are not telepaths" is an even greater insult, and to follow that by claiming that I was the one who was being insulting is more insulting still. At 02:43 PM 8/12/2002 , Gayle wrote: > It certainly sounded to me as though Joseph answered the question that was >asked in good faith, and, like Joseph, I have no idea what other question was >being asked. In the linguistics world, when someone asks "where" a >particular variant pronunciation is used, it practically always means >geographical location. In cases in which a dialect group is not defined by >location, a term other than or modifying "where" is likely to be used. Since >David was asking precisely a question about where a certain pronunciation is >used, I am baffled by how else the question might have been interpreted. Is >anyone else on this list besides David able to read David's mind, or are we >all idiots? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:16:19 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 02:32 PM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > the most significant factor, IIRC (not having been taking >notes), is that the people were from far outside academe or SF fandom, >usually less "educated" folks who had come across Tolkien on their own. >They were also the people who tended to worry about getting things >right, and prone to "him and I" wording. I have talked with many such people, yet I have never heard the long I. Among such people, the "Tolkein" spelling is extremely common, even more than within fandom, where it's common enough. >A more frequent confusion (of which I myself am not sure after some >30-odd years in fandom, etc) is whether it's pronounced "Tol-keen", >"Tol-kee-in", "Tul-keen", or "Tul-kee-in". I've even had courses on his >writings where the professors pronounced it differently from one >another. Some also put the accent on the second syllable, but I'm >*pretty* sure it's on the first. > >I surprised that you have not encountered this, and wonder what this >might imply about our circles of contact. _Those_ pronunciations I _have_ heard, quite frequently. I've also heard "Tol-kin", with a short I, a lot. The one I haven't heard is the long I, "Toll-kine" (kine as in the old plural of cow). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:42:40 -0700 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:30:50 -0700 "David S. Bratman" wrote: > At 03:08 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: > >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 02:10:02PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> Look, fella, you insulted my intelligence. > > > >I see no evidence of having done so. > > How clueless can you get? I don't see a correlation here. > >> I'll offer you a deal: don't > >> treat ME like an idiot, I won't call you one. "Good faith" indeed. > > > >That is the standard social agreement by which I was operating. > > Bull, fella. Stop insulting me. Into what are you choosing to read insult? I note that the terms "idiot" and "clueless" were used in messages that you wrote to me, not the reverse. - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:55:58 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 04:42 PM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >I note that the terms "idiot" >and "clueless" were used in messages that you wrote to me, not the >reverse. This is a reply on the level of PeeWee Herman: "I know you are, but what am I?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:48:06 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:16:19PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >A more frequent confusion (of which I myself am not sure after some > >30-odd years in fandom, etc) is whether it's pronounced "Tol-keen", > >"Tol-kee-in", "Tul-keen", or "Tul-kee-in". I've even had courses on his > >writings where the professors pronounced it differently from one > >another. Some also put the accent on the second syllable, but I'm > >*pretty* sure it's on the first. > > > >I surprised that you have not encountered this, and wonder what this > >might imply about our circles of contact. > > _Those_ pronunciations I _have_ heard, quite frequently. I've also heard > "Tol-kin", with a short I, a lot. The one I haven't heard is the long I, > "Toll-kine" (kine as in the old plural of cow). Come to think of it, I recall talking with someone years ago who insisted that it was to "Tul-kane" (as in Citizen Kane). But he had an accent (some sort of British? Australian?) that I couldn't identify at the time, and that I can't recall clearly a few decades later, so that may have been a way that vowels shifted in his speech in general. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:15:50 -0600 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. I certainly did not read Joseph's response as deliberately insulting. It's possible that on this list, where people have different levels of expertise in different areas, that one might post things that are so obvious to someone else it seems insulting, without the poster having any intention to offend. At any rate, I think the best response for the health of the list is to give each other the benefit of the doubt and to be patient with our mutual shortcomings. :) Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. > It certainly sounded to me as though Joseph answered the question that was > asked in good faith, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:03:30 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:16:13PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > A linguist ought to know that the meanings of "where" include "in whatever > place, situation, or respect in which [something happens]." ... and that without context, one guesses at the scope of the requested answer. > In the second place, I _did_ in the first place mean "where" to mean a > geographical location -- if a geographical location had been an adequate > answer. For instance, Joseph might have said, "For some reason they seem > to say that in the Jersey suburbs, the area of Jersey dialect. I've never > heard it any place else." Had I said that, I would have been lying. Surely you aren't recommend that people lie in addition to emulating your insults ?! > Had that been the case, that would have been an adequate geographical answer. It was a clear answer indicating that I didn't know of a geographical common factor. But it might indeed have suggested something to a linguist who might have known whether that suggested something. And it might have indicated something to you about why your experience had missed these instances. But I had no way of knowing this. As mentioned, I'm not a telepath. > But since from Joseph's actual answer, "Primarily in New Jersey. Also in > Texas, and, I believe, in DC," it should have been obvious, even to him, > that no geographical concentration was involved. To pretend, in that case, > that this was an adequate answer, is an insult to the intelligence of the > question. In that case, the "where" needs to be answered in some other > way. Human beings are not robots, and should be capable of figuring out > when one type of answer is not a helpful response to a question, especially > after they've been told it's not helpful. I answered the question truthfully and accurately, to the extent that I had information. Had you indicated that you knew of a different angle to the question and suggested it, I would have answered more fully. I'm not a linguist myself, and not clear on what the relevant data were. Most of the people with these pronunciations were also rather tall, but I don't know if this would suggest anything to a linguist. One of the pertinent skills in research is the asking of effective questions, especially when theone being questioned is not known to be in on the jargon and details of the questioner's field. It appears that a gap in these skills has become apparent, and might benefit from a brushing up. > To respond to that by saying "Human beings are not telepaths" is an even > greater insult, and to follow that by claiming that I was the one who was > being insulting is more insulting still. I followed up on what I could guess that you were thinking from your ambiguous statements and questions. To deflect your having insulted me by claiming to have been the one insulted is the lamest form of blaming the victim. I see that my perception is confirmed by others on the list. We eagerly await your apology. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:06:18 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:55:58PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 04:42 PM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: > > >I note that the terms "idiot" > >and "clueless" were used in messages that you wrote to me, not the > >reverse. > > This is a reply on the level of PeeWee Herman: "I know you are, but what am I?" Not sure why you chose to form your answer in a self-referencing sentence, but it's in keeping with the clarity of your earlier questions. So you drop the discussion to PeeWee Herman's level? What level of respect does that show to the members of this list? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:20:22 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. From: "meredith" > As a counterpoint to Berni's post, I offer this: it took me an > embarrassingly long time to figure out that _The Lion..._ is a Christian > allegory, especially considering that I was a Catholic school student at > the time (have I mentioned just what a dense reader/viewer I am?! Actually, that seems to be typical. People who read it in childhood and had not been told that it was a Christian allegory usually don't pick up on that, at least according to many people I've talked with. (Which is fine with me. When I was a kid, I just wanted a good story. I didn't like to be made aware that there was more to it than that. Of course, this doesn't explain my fondness for Elsie Dinsmore, who I over-identified with.) Berni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:48:28 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. At 06:03 PM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:16:13PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> A linguist ought to know that the meanings of "where" include "in whatever >> place, situation, or respect in which [something happens]." > >... and that without context, one guesses at the scope of the >requested answer. And one shows a little human intelligence when doing so. (See later on, where I wrote "Human beings are not robots, and should be capable of figuring out when one type of answer is not a helpful response to a question, _especially after they've been told it's not helpful._" >> In the second place, I _did_ in the first place mean "where" to mean a >> geographical location -- if a geographical location had been an adequate >> answer. For instance, Joseph might have said, "For some reason they seem >> to say that in the Jersey suburbs, the area of Jersey dialect. I've never >> heard it any place else." > >Had I said that, I would have been lying. Surely you aren't recommend >that people lie in addition to emulating your insults ?! Read the next sentence I wrote. "Had that been the case ..." i.e. had that been factual. And the previous sentence, "_If_ a geographical location _had been_ an adequate answer" i.e. had it been factual. Surely you're not incapable of recognizing words like "had been" and "if" as conditionals? (Am I "insulting" you by writing "surely you're not?" You just wrote that first.) Oh, and "emulating insults"? Insofar as I may have insulted you, you emulated me precisely, by repeating my "newsflash" wording, and then with your incredibly insulting PeeWee Herman tricks. >It was a clear answer indicating that I didn't know of a geographical >common factor. But it might indeed have suggested something to a >linguist who might have known whether that suggested something. And it >might have indicated something to you about why your experience had >missed these instances. But I had no way of knowing this. As >mentioned, I'm not a telepath. That would have been fine, had you actually said something of the sort ("I don't know of a factor"), and had you not tacked on that insulting "I'm not a telepath." Since you know perfectly well that I was not under the impression that you were a telepath, to act as if I must have thought you were - that's an insult. >I answered the question truthfully and accurately, to the extent that >I had information. Had you indicated that you knew of a different >angle to the question and suggested it, I would have answered more >fully. I had and have no knowledge of a different angle to the question. You did, and eventually offered it. It doesn't take reading of my mind to know that the word "where" can mean something other than general geographical location in the sense you used it. And since, as you acknowledge, a geographical where in that sense was no real answer, then at the very least WHEN YOU WERE TOLD that it was unhelpful, you could have offered something else instead of - insults. It's quite disingenuous to claim that this was a full answer. That's on the order of exchanges like "Do you know what time it is?" "Yes." >One of the pertinent skills in research is the asking of effective >questions, especially when theone being questioned is not known to be >in on the jargon and details of the questioner's field. It appears >that a gap in these skills has become apparent, and might benefit from >a brushing up. "The jargon and details of the questioner's field"?? What field am I supposed to be a representative of? The use of the word "where" to mean something other than general geographical location is not "jargon" or "details". I have a dictionary right here which gives, as one standard definition of "where," "in whatever place, situation, or respect in which [something happens]." May I also suggest, since you're being so arch (note the impersonal tense of the last sentence) that a) this is hardly a research environment, and none of us, except perhaps Gayle, are professional linguists, so your criticism is misplaced; b) that the ANSWERING of questions is also a pertinent skill, especially when the one being questioned is in possession of facts which the questioner does not even know the extent of; c) that an even more pertinent skill is the ability to perceive that the answer didn't satisfy the questioner when the questioner replies by SAYING SO; d) that a gap in these skills on the part of a certain question-answerer is most clearly apparent. >I followed up on what I could guess that you were thinking from your >ambiguous statements and questions. To deflect your having insulted me >by claiming to have been the one insulted is the lamest form of >blaming the victim. "To deflect ... is the lamest form ..." Couldn't have said it better myself, buster. You START by foisting off an inadequate answer, which any intelligent person should have figured out is inadequate, you pretend not to be able to figure out that it's inadequate when I say so, you pretend that I didn't realize you're not a telepath ... and you say I'M insulting YOU? >I see that my perception is confirmed by others on the list. We >eagerly await your apology. I am deeply sorry that someone who considers his behavior to be adequate, reasonable, full, and accurate, chooses to criticize mine. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:48:34 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. See, you _are_ writing on a PeeWee Herman level! I was saying that YOU dropped it to that level, and you act as if I'm the one who did it! (Because I first mentioned the name. Does that make an "idiot" the person who first says the word "idiot" rather than the person who acts like one?) At 06:06 PM 8/12/2002 , you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:55:58PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> At 04:42 PM 8/12/2002 , Joseph wrote: >> >> >I note that the terms "idiot" >> >and "clueless" were used in messages that you wrote to me, not the >> >reverse. >> >> This is a reply on the level of PeeWee Herman: "I know you are, but what >am I?" > >Not sure why you chose to form your answer in a self-referencing >sentence, but it's in keeping with the clarity of your earlier >questions. > >So you drop the discussion to PeeWee Herman's level? What level of >respect does that show to the members of this list? > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:54:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Other Could the pissing contest please be continued privately? Thank you. HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:55:47 -0700 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: t/narnia etc. On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:48:34 -0700 "David S. Bratman" wrote: > See, you _are_ writing on a PeeWee Herman level! I was saying that > YOU dropped it to that level, and you act as if I'm the one who did > it!(Because I first mentioned the name. Does that make an "idiot" the > person who first says the word "idiot" rather than the person who acts > like one?) The question is moot when they are one and the same. - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #117 *****************************