From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #78 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Saturday, May 25 2002 Volume 04 : Number 078 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/two hours of [allenw ] Re: b/two hours of [Joseph Zitt ] Re: b/two hours of ["David S. Bratman" ] a/disturbing news for next season [meredith ] b/two to go/graves [meredith ] b/music for final scene ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/two hours of ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/two hours of ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/music for final scene [Joseph Zitt ] b/interesting articles [meredith ] Re: b/music for final scene [meredith ] Re: a/disturbing news for next season ["Berni Phillips" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:40:42 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of At 05:26 PM 5/22/2002 , Gayle wrote: > Definitely agree with that. Excessive fight scenes get boring and >repetitious to me (I had the same prob with Lord of the Rings movie) A major change in spirit from the book, of course, which (especially in the first volume) has very little actual fighting. The climactic battle at the end of the volume takes place entirely offstage. Tolkien knew what he was doing. >but I >figure I must be in the minority -- after all, video games that are pretty >much nothing =but= fight scenes, and scarcely more plot than a porno movie, >seem to be pretty popular. I also. My prime objection, not just to video games but to role-playing games like D&D, is that they have no plot or overall structure. Just one event after another. I need structure in my art - which is why, for instance, I prefer symphonies to ballet music. Even plotted ballets tend to be episodic (consider Act 2 of Nutcracker, for instance), while the best symphonies are extremely tightly structured. A thoroughly controlled and intricate structure is also characteristic of BTVS at its best. > >And I > >thought it worked thematically as a bridge between the dark tone of this > >season and the presumably lighter tone of next season. > > If you're talking about the humorous parts ... the quality of BTVS has > always lain in the elegant mixture of horror and humor. Not this time. > Mixed like oil and water. Stuck out like sore thumbs. Lay there like lead > balloons. Pick your metaphor. >> > > No, I'm not talking about the humorous parts (don't really remember any, >actually). I'm talking about the ep as a thematic bridge between the dark >tone of this season and the lighter tone of next season -- exactly what I >said. Yes, you said that, but what you didn't say was what thematic elements made it a bridge! The only lighter thematic element I could find was the humorous parts, which as I said didn't work, and which you didn't even notice were there. (Things like the conversation amongst Giles and the women about the latters' hair.) If one end of the bridge is broken, it doesn't work as a bridge. If the attempted humor wasn't the element that made the episode a thematic bridge to a lighter tone, then what was? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:12:23 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > Yes, you said that, but what you didn't say was what thematic elements made > it a bridge! The only lighter thematic element I could find was the > humorous parts, which as I said didn't work, and which you didn't even > notice were there. (Things like the conversation amongst Giles and the > women about the latters' hair.) If one end of the bridge is broken, it > doesn't work as a bridge. If the attempted humor wasn't the element that > made the episode a thematic bridge to a lighter tone, then what was? > At a guess, the various plot threads' progressions towards redemption, maturity, and not-everyone-dying? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:13:40 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, allenw wrote: > On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > > Yes, you said that, but what you didn't say was what thematic elements made > > it a bridge! The only lighter thematic element I could find was the > > humorous parts, which as I said didn't work, and which you didn't even > > notice were there. (Things like the conversation amongst Giles and the > > women about the latters' hair.) If one end of the bridge is broken, it > > doesn't work as a bridge. If the attempted humor wasn't the element that > > made the episode a thematic bridge to a lighter tone, then what was? > > > At a guess, the various plot threads' progressions towards redemption, > maturity, and not-everyone-dying? > P.S. I'm not saying that all of the above were done well; some I thought so, some not so much. But that progression was clearly the authorial intent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:27:38 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:30:20 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? > Okay, would you believe 'no-one-else-dying'? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:42:55 -0700 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/two hours of > 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? For this show, yes. BTW, whatcha think of the new Fred and Gunn show? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:48:27 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of At 10:42 AM 5/24/2002 , Marty wrote: >> 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? > >For this show, yes. That makes BTVS the lightest-toned show on television. Not once has everybody died. Other shows with less strict standards are less likely to meet them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:57:15 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 10:42 AM 5/24/2002 , Marty wrote: > >> 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? > > > >For this show, yes. > > That makes BTVS the lightest-toned show on television. Not once has > everybody died. Other shows with less strict standards are less likely to > meet them. > Well, we got at least 75% fatalities in "The Wish"... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:08:32 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of At 10:57 AM 5/24/2002 , Allen wrote: > Well, we got at least 75% fatalities in "The Wish"... All "revived" by the end of the episode. Doesn't count. Look, they averted the end of the world last week. They've done that before, and they've even commented on how often they've done it. That's not a bridge to a lighter tone. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:21:08 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 10:57 AM 5/24/2002 , Allen wrote: > > > Well, we got at least 75% fatalities in "The Wish"... > > All "revived" by the end of the episode. Doesn't count. > > Look, they averted the end of the world last week. They've done that > before, and they've even commented on how often they've done it. That's > not a bridge to a lighter tone. > As I said, that particular point could have better expressed as "no-one *else* died," which was by no means a foregone conclusion. And the rest of my points still stand. Everyone (except Giles, who started out mature, and arguably the Geek Duo) ended up in a better, more mature emotional and/or spiritual state than they started the episode(s) in. Yes, even Anya. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:32:54 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of At 11:21 AM 5/24/2002 , Allen wrote: > As I said, that particular point could have better expressed as "no-one >*else* died," which was by no means a foregone conclusion. Not what was actually at first said, or even a possible interpretation thereof. 'tis that which I'm incredulous at. > And the rest of my points still stand. Everyone (except Giles, who >started out mature, and arguably the Geek Duo) ended up in a better, more >mature emotional and/or spiritual state than they started the episode(s) >in. Yes, even Anya. Reconciliations of estranged parties are hardly in themselves a "bridge to a lighter tone." I suppose any reasonable tone would be lighter than this season's - but a "lighter tone" implies a measurable degree of actual lightness, not just an absence of complete darkness. And even this season wasn't completely dark, and several episodes were less dark than this one, so there's still no evidence from this episode that it's "a bridge to a lighter tone." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:37:21 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/two hours of In a message dated 5/24/02 10:12:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, allenw@io.com writes: << > Yes, you said that, but what you didn't say was what thematic elements made > it a bridge! >> Think I'm not getting all the posts, as this and other times I have seen posts quoted when I never saw the originals. The thematic bridge seems so obvious, I thought it bordered on the =clumsily= obvious, so it amazes me that someone would seriously ask what it was. The biggest scaffold of the thenatic bridge was Buffy's change of outlook by the end, from spending the whole season wishing she hadn't come back to the "hell" of living on Earth, to a newly positive view. Willow embodied (sort of channeled, in a way) Buffy's semiconscious suicidal wish, and Willow's catharsis at the end also expressed a kind of cathartic turning point for Buffy. And plus the whole theme of redemption and healing through unconditional love. And ending the ep with the prayer of St Francis of Assisi makes the thematic bridge pretty explicit. The decisive scene in which "perfect love casteth out fear" and "love conquers all" could have been contrived, sappy, preachy and unbelievable. In fact, it would be extremely difficult for any show to convincingly pull off a scene in which someone who is determined to destroy the world is dissuaded from that mission by the Power of Love. The fact that (IMO) BUFFY managed to make such a difficult thing work is to me an impressive feat that more than redeems the episode. I also don't think that Giles and the power-loaning coven was an arbitrary plot element; I think it is a tie-in reference to his spinoff, in which we will meet that coven. But for my taste, way too much fighting, which is not only tiresome to me but the repetition reduces the impact of any individual fight scene. IMO they should have spent more of that time building suspense and had a few big explosive fight scenes. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:49:43 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of Gayle - OK. I was looking for something that said "lighter tone" to me. David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:53:46 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, 24 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > Gayle - > > OK. I was looking for something that said "lighter tone" to me. > > David > Perhaps this is a problem of definitions? I think Gayle and I are using "lighter" to signify "more uplifting, less depressing;" are you using it to signify "less serious, more humorous"? One tends to be accompanied by the other; though this isn't always the case, I think Joss' and SMG's comments indicate that both will generally be the case next season. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:20:00 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/two hours of On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 10:27:38AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? Yes, in comparison. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:46:40 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/two hours of At 05:20 PM 5/24/2002 , Joseph wrote: >On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 10:27:38AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > >> 'not-everyone-dying' is a -lighter tone-?? > >Yes, in comparison. In comparison to what? Not once in this show has everybody died. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:33:13 -0400 From: meredith Subject: a/disturbing news for next season Hi, According to aintitcool.com, _Angel_ co-creator and mastermind David Greenwalt is leaving the show to helm a genre midseason replacement on ABC. The info is here: http://161.58.94.181/display.cgi?id=12344 David Simkins, who is a veteran of _Dark Angel_ and the weaker moments of _Roswell_ is going to take over Greenwalt's position on _Angel_. I'm not entirely sure this is going to turn out to be a good thing, but time will tell I guess... ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:11:55 -0400 From: meredith Subject: b/two to go/graves Hi, I'm posting this independent of any other comments ... I'll get to individual responses later. Due to other things going on I didn't get to watch the finale(s) until last night. I enjoyed it while it was happening, then after reading the vitriol here I wasn't sure what to think. I slept on it, and awoke this morning with a realization that sets everything into reasonable context for me. Both episodes were a comic book story. This is by no means unique in the history of the show ... but this story, in particular Willow's story in these episodes is right out of the comics. I don't think this is a stretch, considering that the writers of the episodes, Doug Petrie and David Fury are well-documented as the biggest comic geeks on the writing staff (even bigger than Joss). Andrew's comment that Willow is "going all Dark Phoenix up there" is telling. There are several parallels between the Dark Phoenix story and what happened to Willow this season. [Quick overview: One of the X-Men, a powerful telepath/telekinetic named Jean Grey was possessed by an entity called Phoenix, which then became drunk on its own power and morphed into Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix caused the sun of a remote solar system to go nova, destroying millions of beings, then headed back to Earth. She utterly defeated the X-Men and was about to destroy this solar system as well, until the little part of her that was still Jean Grey managed to come to the surface and commit suicide to stop the madness. Fortunately, Xander saved Willow before anyone had to take extreme measures to save her from herself.] Also, it is a well-worn comics trope that the hero's archvillain is more often than not someone very close to them, either a former best friend or even a family member (Magneto:Professor Xavier, Green Goblin:Spider-Man are just two examples, not to mention Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix:X-Men). It's sort of an extension of the "you always hurt the one you love" theory. Another comic book thing: Willow's changed appearance when she absorbs all of the dark magic from the books, and then her change back once Xander snaps her out of it at the very end. A lot of the things Dark Willow said, as well as the way she said them reminded me of various comics as well. The fights are very comic-y, too. In that context, they're not over the top at all. While watching Willow's knock-down-and-drag-out with Buffy, I was also reminded of the _Xena_ episode "Devi", where Gabrielle gets possessed by a demon called Tataka, and then proceeds to open a family-sized can of whupass all over Xena. In both cases, the actors were obviously having a great time doing something they never get to do otherwise. Looking back on the episodes I can almost picture how they would look on a graphic page, with the boldfaced emphasis placed on certain words and phrases and sound effects in big colorful fonts. This may be anathema to some people, but it sure helps the episodes work much better for me. :) Favorite moments: Giles: "You cut your hair." Anya: "I went blonde. Again." Giles totally losing it when Buffy runs down what he missed -- nice to know the writers feel our pain. Willow to Dawn: "I can send you back." Dawn: "What, you think I haven't been watching you?!" "Very well then. We give you back your soul." Next year is set up to be very interesting, indeed. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:12:55 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: b/music for final scene Did anyone notice that the song sung at the end of Buffy as Xander comforted Willow was the "Prayer of St. Francis" ("Make me a channel of your peace....")? It certainly caught my attention (especially since I am doing that this Sunday at church), but I was unfamiliar with this setting of it. I didn't see the information in the closing credits. Does anyone know the composer and/or singer? The text of it really underscored Xander's role in the Scooby gang, a role which was outlined in "Primeval." ("Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love with all my soul.") Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:17:40 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/two hours of From: "David S. Bratman" > Look, they averted the end of the world last week. They've done that > before, and they've even commented on how often they've done it. That's > not a bridge to a lighter tone. No, it's not. The bridge was with Buffy realizing that she was still over-protecting Dawn, thinking of her as her baby sister/key. Once she saw Dawn wielding the sword competantly, she realized little sis was grown up, more or less. The bridge was Buffy's declaration that instead of trying to protect Dawn from the world, she should have been showing her the world, which is presumably what she will be doing next season. I've long thought that Buffy was smothering Dawn. Sure, the kid gets in trouble, but Buffy was slaying vampires at her age and didn't have a baby sister when Joyce wasn't home. Then I realized that it was probably pretty tough to shake off the residue of the spell which created Dawn and laid a geas on Buffy to protect her. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:20:01 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/two hours of From: "allenw" >Everyone (except Giles, who > started out mature, and arguably the Geek Duo) ended up in a better, more > mature emotional and/or spiritual state than they started the episode(s) > in. Yes, even Anya. Anya remarks quietly at one point how desire for vengeance played its part in the events. Methinks she may be rethinking her decision to take back her demonic role. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:12:50 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/music for final scene On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 06:12:55PM -0700, Berni Phillips wrote: > Did anyone notice that the song sung at the end of Buffy as Xander comforted > Willow was the "Prayer of St. Francis" ("Make me a channel of your > peace....")? It certainly caught my attention (especially since I am doing > that this Sunday at church), but I was unfamiliar with this setting of it. I > didn't see the information in the closing credits. Does anyone know the > composer and/or singer? It was Sarah McLachlan's recording of the traditional song, originally on a bonus disc that came with "Surfacing" if you bought it at Borders when it was first released. I don't know if it's been released elsewhere. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:20:59 -0400 From: meredith Subject: b/interesting articles Hi, A few articles of note: 1.) A brilliant review of the finale from salon.com is at http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2002/05/22/buffy/index.html (any article that starts off with a quotation from TS Eliot's _The Waste Land_ starts off on the right foot with me ) 2.) The transcript of a fascinating (and sometimes revealing) interview with Jane Espenson is at http://www.slayage.com/news/020522-je_int.html. Contains some interesting tidbits that could be perceived as food for thought for next season. 3.) Finally, I include this one simply for the cognitive dissonance factor of finding a _Buffy_ review at the National Review Online: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-hibbs052402.asp Enjoy! ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:26:14 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/music for final scene Hi, Berni wondered: >Did anyone notice that the song sung at the end of Buffy as Xander comforted >Willow was the "Prayer of St. Francis" ("Make me a channel of your >peace....")? It certainly caught my attention (especially since I am doing >that this Sunday at church), but I was unfamiliar with this setting of it. I >didn't see the information in the closing credits. Does anyone know the >composer and/or singer? Yes, I noticed this -- I think it worked particularly well in the context of the scene. That version is by Sarah McLachlan, and I believe it's a b-side from the single "Building A Mystery", from the album _Surfacing_. I'd have to check to make sure (I was a scarily obsessed Sarah McLachlan fan until the absolutely horrid _Surfacing_ came out, at which point I lost all interest, so I'm not sure exactly where it first appeared). >The text of it really underscored Xander's role in the Scooby gang, a role >which was outlined in "Primeval." ("Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek >so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be >loved as to love with all my soul.") ... not to mention, the visual of Spike getting his soul back right after "and in dying we are born to eternal life". Like I said, I think the song worked very well there. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:32:26 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: a/disturbing news for next season From: "meredith" > David Simkins, who is a veteran of _Dark Angel_ and the weaker moments of > _Roswell_ is going to take over Greenwalt's position on _Angel_. Ewwww. I liked Roswell until it moved to UPN. I saw the season premiere and disliked it intensely. The characters seemed totally changed to me and were very unappealing. What's-her-face, the human that Max saved in the first episode, would not have gone along with a crime, even if it wasn't intentional, and then been groping him the way she did. On the other hand, the new show that Greenwalt is going to be working on sounds very appealing to me, if they don't play it sordid. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:24:05 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/interesting articles On Fri, 24 May 2002, meredith wrote: > 2.) The transcript of a fascinating (and sometimes revealing) interview > with Jane Espenson is at > http://www.slayage.com/news/020522-je_int.html. Contains some interesting > tidbits that could be perceived as food for thought for next season. Note that it's not a complete transcript, in two senses: 1: Some parts not of interest to the transcriber are summarized or omitted; the transcriber is a member of the Kitten Board (W/T fans), and that's where it was first posted, so the W/T stuff is covered nost completely. 2: At present, Slayage only duplicates the transcript of the first half of the interview. The second half has also been posted to the Kitten Board, in the same thread; the exact message is http://pub106.ezboard.com/fthekittenthewitchesandthebadwardrobe36671frm1.showMessageRange?topicID=436.topic&start=169&stop=169 though I expect many mail programs won't handle a link that long. If you go looking for it yourself, be aware that it's near the end of the "Jane Espenson at The Succubus Club" thread (early messages from the transcriber, "Rally," are a paraphrased transcript; the word-for-word comes later); also be aware that the Kitten Board has been the Unhappiest Place on Earth for the last month or so, and anti-M.E. ranting is not only common, but actively encouraged (verging on required) by the moderators. But it's their board, so why not? (Trying to post dissenting responses there is *not* advisable, by the way, both because it will tend to get deleted and because it will tend to be seen as a rude intrusion. Once again, their board, their rules.) Also note that the same transcriber's transcripts of the last two week's Succubus Club interviews (with Steve DeKnight and David Fury) can also be found on the Kitten Board, in the Spoiler Archives section (not for the faint of heart): http://pub106.ezboard.com/fthekittenthewitchesandthebadwardrobe36671frm8 ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #78 ****************************