From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #71 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Saturday, May 18 2002 Volume 04 : Number 071 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/villains [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/villains [Todd Huff ] Re: b/villains [allenw ] Re: b/villains [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/Two To Go [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/villains [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/villains ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/Two To Go ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/villains ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/villains [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/villains [Joseph Zitt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:54:52 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/villains In a message dated 5/16/02 10:23:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sfmarty1@attbi.com writes: << > > I think they're setting up something with Spike, though Oh yes. >> What I mean is, I fear Spike may be doomed. If a human Spike is boring to Buffy, how interesting could he really be to the audience either? If anyone is suggesting that Spike is going to hang around all next season in human form, I'd like to hear some scenarios in which that would be interesting, compelling, not pathetic, and not a rehash of the issues that Angel-with-a-soul and Darla-returned-to-human had to struggle with. And if he is returned to villainous vampire, that's old too. (I hate the idea of losing Spike, but I have a hard time visualizing a future story line for him that is new and compelling, so I really would like to hear suggestions.) Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/villains > What I mean is, I fear Spike may be doomed. If a > human Spike is boring to > Buffy, how interesting could he really be to the > audience either? If anyone > is suggesting that Spike is going to hang around all > next season in human > form, I'd like to hear some scenarios in which that > would be interesting, > compelling, not pathetic, and not a rehash of the > issues that > Angel-with-a-soul and Darla-returned-to-human had to > struggle with. And if > he is returned to villainous vampire, that's old > too. (I hate the idea of > losing Spike, but I have a hard time visualizing a > future story line for him > that is new and compelling, so I really would like > to hear suggestions.) "Rogue demon hunter" has been done too. :) LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:59:12 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/villains On Fri, 17 May 2002 GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/16/02 10:23:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > sfmarty1@attbi.com writes: > > << > > > I think they're setting up something with Spike, though > > Oh yes. >> > > What I mean is, I fear Spike may be doomed. If a human Spike is boring to > Buffy, how interesting could he really be to the audience either? If anyone > is suggesting that Spike is going to hang around all next season in human > form, I'd like to hear some scenarios in which that would be interesting, > compelling, not pathetic, and not a rehash of the issues that > Angel-with-a-soul and Darla-returned-to-human had to struggle with. And if > he is returned to villainous vampire, that's old too. (I hate the idea of > losing Spike, but I have a hard time visualizing a future story line for him > that is new and compelling, so I really would like to hear suggestions.) > > Gayle > How about Spike-as-demon? Not this wishy-washy half-demon Vampire stuff, but a full-fledged Demon? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:20:13 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/villains In a message dated 5/16/02 10:19:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sfmarty1@attbi.com writes: << > I suspect that he'd be a more comedic character when human. And probably > would now be a better poet. A better lover for Buffy? A Scoobie? A man in search of a vampire to reconvert him? Alll sorts of things could happen to a surprised Spike. >> All sorts of things, yes -- but what could happen to him that would be compelling to an audience? Settles down into a nice pleasant relationhip with Buffy? Becomes a regular-guy Scoobie as opposed to the love-hate relationship he has with them now? Searches for a vampire to reconvert him - -- is that a storyline that can be sustained indefinitely, and hold an audience's interest, and really seem that new and different from his quest to get rid of the chip? To survive, I think he will need a role in the show that is interesting and something new to do that does not seem like a tired rehash of what has gone before. I also can't imagine a human Spike being more comedic than he has been in some of his comedic episodes, like the one where he wanted the spell cast on Drusilla, or his comedic moments in episodes like "Hush" -- without the darkness and danger, the comedy would IMO not have been nearly as effective. And he isn't inexperienced enough in being human to be as comedically fish-out-of-water as was Anya. But I want someone to convince me that Spike can have a new and compelling future story line, because I would hate to lose him. Better yet, I want the show to convince me that he can. :-) Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:20:08 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/Two To Go In a message dated 5/16/02 8:29:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << Hmm. I don't recall a major death in the season with Adam and The Initiative (I lose count of which that was, numerically), but I could be forgetting something. >> Oh yeah. That was such a forgettable season (esp the second half) I can barely remember what happened in the season finale. Something about Willow teaming up with Buffy to do spells or something? -- Wait a minute, was that the season where the real season finale was "Restless"? Yeah, no one died there either. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:33:38 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/villains In a message dated 5/17/02 7:58:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, allenw@io.com writes: << How about Spike-as-demon? Not this wishy-washy half-demon Vampire stuff, but a full-fledged Demon? >> Would that be so different from when he was a full-fledged, evil vampire? Or do you mean a lovable demon like Clem? One thing Spike has to have to be compelling (really, what any character has to have to be compelling) is he has to =need= something, or want something, or seek something. That is what gives a character momentum. Buffy's characters don't just sit around waiting for something to happen (as characters in non-arc shows have to do), they all need or want something, and the interesting-ness of the character tends to be proportional to the strength of their need. Spike's needs have been particularly intense (to kill the Slayer, to get Angel away from Dru, to get the chip out, to love Buffy) and that is why he is an intense and compelling character. Now, the question is not really whether he becomes a demon, becomes a Scooby, becomes whatever -- the question is: is what intense need will pull him and give him the intensity that makes him Spike? Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:03:13 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/villains At 08:33 AM 5/17/2002 , Gayle wrote: >Buffy's characters don't just sit around waiting for something to happen (as >characters in non-arc shows have to do), they all need or want something, and >the interesting-ness of the character tends to be proportional to the >strength of their need. Aren't you being a little harsh on non-arc shows? On Star Trek, they're just cruising the galaxy looking for something to happen, but that does not prevent them from being interesting characters. I don't think the more arc-like sequels necessarily had superior characters to the exquisitely archetypal Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Nor is "just sitting around" incompatible with needing or wanting something. The castaways on Gilligan's Island sat around for three years, but they definitely wanted something. A non-arc show can suffer from the fact that nothing permanent can happen to the continuing characters; however intense the momentary danger, it has to wash off by the end of the episode (unless it's a two-parter). But an arc show can suffer because something always has to be happening to the continuing characters, and that's what I have been beginning to notice about BTVS over the last couple of years. The Giant Auctorial Thumb is there to make sure that not too many episodes pass by without something terrible happening to somebody, and I think the rate and intensity of the somethings have been increasing. I think one reason I didn't react so strongly to Tara's death is because I'm finding it harder and harder to respond emotionally to these characters as if they were real people. This didn't use to be a problem. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:43:40 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/Two To Go From: "Joseph Zitt" > On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 07:04:26PM -0400, GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > > > might not be a major enough character for a season finale death. (A major > > character has died in every season finale, even if the death is temporary, > > isn't that right?) > > Hmm. I don't recall a major death in the season with Adam and The > Initiative (I lose count of which that was, numerically), but I could > be forgetting something. I was thinking the same thing. It depends on what you consider major. There was Maggie Walsh and Forrest, who were very close to Riley. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:46:22 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/villains From: > > What I mean is, I fear Spike may be doomed. If a human Spike is boring to > Buffy, how interesting could he really be to the audience either? If anyone > is suggesting that Spike is going to hang around all next season in human > form, I'd like to hear some scenarios in which that would be interesting, > compelling, not pathetic, and not a rehash of the issues that > Angel-with-a-soul and Darla-returned-to-human had to struggle with. And if > he is returned to villainous vampire, that's old too. (I hate the idea of > losing Spike, but I have a hard time visualizing a future story line for him > that is new and compelling, so I really would like to hear suggestions.) Spike as watcher in training? Remember "Restless." Berni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:23:43 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/villains In a message dated 5/17/02 5:46:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bernip@ix.netcom.com writes: << Spike as watcher in training? Remember "Restless." >> Oh, now THERE'S something, :-) Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 22:14:51 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/villains On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 05:03:13PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > I think one reason I didn't react so strongly to Tara's death is because > I'm finding it harder and harder to respond emotionally to these characters > as if they were real people. This didn't use to be a problem. I'm finding the opposite, that the characters are becoming more real to me. And I think that's one reason Tara's death had less impact for me: instead of its being the result of a grand cosmic crisis, it was an almost offhand and mundane guy->gun->*splat*, happening while almost everyone's back was turned. (I was struck by how long it took everyone but, of course, Willow, to find out.) I was reminded a lot of the death of Tasha Yar's death in ST:TNG. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #71 ****************************