From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #69 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, May 16 2002 Volume 04 : Number 069 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/villains [allenw ] Re: b/villains [Todd Huff ] b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet [Joseph Zitt ] Re: b/villains ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/villains [allenw ] Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet ["David S. Bratman" ] o/firefly photos [meredith ] Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/villains ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet [meredith ] Re: b/villains [meredith ] a/this week [meredith ] Re: b/villains [Joseph Zitt ] Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet ["David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/villains On Tue, 14 May 2002, David S. Bratman wrote: > Not much in the way of comments yet, eh? I guess everybody's either off on > the other boards or is still too stunned. > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somehow, it seems from the preview, Willow will come in conflict with > Buffy. Probably simply due to Willow's taking the law a bit much into her > own hands. I suppose she is the season's Big Bad after all, in a sense; > though we still have Spike to worry about. (I see I guessed right about > what he's after.) > Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to get. Poor Spike, so insightful except when it comes to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very Important is these sorts of situations. "His former self" indeed... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:45:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/villains - --- "David S. Bratman" wrote: > Not much in the way of comments yet, eh? I guess > everybody's either off on > the other boards or is still too stunned. > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. Thoughts: > 5. What next? Willow's last words are "One down." > Presumably she is not > discussing football. So who else is she after? > Jonathan and Andrew? Next week is entitled "Two to Go", so I think that's the safe bet. >>> Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to get. Poor Spike, so insightful except when it comes to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very Important is these sorts of situations. "His former self" indeed... Now that's something I hadn't picked up on. Very interesting. LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:43:48 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet I found this article kinda amusing, considering Buffy's day job. (NYTimes, free registration needed, yadda yadda) http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/health/14FUNG.html - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:28:59 -0700 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/villains - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Huff" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 7:45 AM Subject: Re: b/villains > > > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to > get. Poor Spike, so insightful except when it comes > to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he > still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very > Important is these sorts of situations. "His former > self" indeed... > > > Now that's something I hadn't picked up on. Very interesting. Yeah, I hadn't noticed that either, but it certainly opens things up! Sue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:32:28 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/villains On Wed, 15 May 2002, Susan Kroupa wrote: > > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to > > get. Poor Spike, so insightful except when it comes > > to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he > > still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very > > Important is these sorts of situations. "His former > > self" indeed... > > > > > > Now that's something I hadn't picked up on. Very interesting. > > Yeah, I hadn't noticed that either, but it certainly opens things up! > But, if it plays out that way, will it be too similar to Darla on Angel? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:52:23 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet Hrm. That's amusing, Joseph. Note that the argument is over whether it's misleading to call this stuff "from the mushroom family" when it's not mushroom and what they mean by "family" is, it's fungus. People are obviously less ready to eat something labeled "fungus" than something labeled "mushroom", even though they know that mushrooms are a kind of fungus. Berni has the right attitude. She's a vegetarian, but excludes mushrooms. When offered them, she says, "No, thanks, I don't do fungus." And the article says Quorn is named for a town in Britain. Are they trying to fool somebody? I don't believe there's a town called "Quorn" in the UK, and MultiMap doesn't believe it either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:53:52 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:52:23AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > And the article says Quorn is named for a town in Britain. Are they trying > to fool somebody? I don't believe there's a town called "Quorn" in the UK, > and MultiMap doesn't believe it either. Quorn (Quorndon) Village, Leicestershire, UK http://www.quorndon.com/ Google knows all :-) - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:33:31 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet At 10:53 AM 5/15/2002 , Joseph wrote: >Google knows all :-) Would you like me to start keeping a log of all the things I've been unable to find via Google? It's a very long list. That all human knowledge is on the web is one of the great pernicious misapprehensions of our time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:48:27 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:33:31AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/15/2002 , Joseph wrote: > > >Google knows all :-) > > Would you like me to start keeping a log of all the things I've been unable > to find via Google? > > It's a very long list. I'd be interested in knowing what they are. I've only failed to find a very few things, almost always because their in really obscure areas, information tightly controlled by people or organizations who intentionally keep the information offline, or (most frequently) involves looking for groups of very common words. Other than that, I'm pleased. > That all human knowledge is on the web is one of the great pernicious > misapprehensions of our time. Fortunately, I don't think I know anyone who honestly believes that. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:01:04 -0400 From: meredith Subject: o/firefly photos Hi, FOX is announcing its fall schedule tomorrow, and word is that DARK ANGEL will be on it (yay!), but Joss' new show, FIREFLY has been pushed back to midseason. Apparently they are making him redo the pilot "to up the action quotient". While I'm nervous about what that might mean, I'm holding out hope that Joss will still end up doing something really good. In the meantime, images from the pilot can be found here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=14 ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:30:29 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet At 12:48 PM 5/15/2002 , Joseph wrote: >On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:33:31AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: >> At 10:53 AM 5/15/2002 , Joseph wrote: >> >> >Google knows all :-) >> >> Would you like me to start keeping a log of all the things I've been unable >> to find via Google? >> >> It's a very long list. > >I'd be interested in knowing what they are. I've only failed to find a >very few things, almost always because their in really obscure areas, >information tightly controlled by people or organizations who >intentionally keep the information offline, or (most frequently) >involves looking for groups of very common words. Other than that, I'm >pleased. Well, sure, I'm pretty pleased with the Web too, much of the time. But virtually nothing that doesn't have either a commercial organization promoting it, or a dedicated amateur fan club, can be found for free on the web. Item: I'm making a catalog of my classical record collection. Information on living and recent composers who aren't fully covered by music encyclopedias is amazingly spotty. Some of them are covered in amazingly complete, precise, and accurate detail on the web. Others, absolutely zip. For medieval and Renaissance composers, other than the well-known ones, there is no web information outside of proprietary dictionaries, and occasional record catalogs and library lists which don't tell you anything than the name of the piece. Item: As of the last time I scoured for any, the only remotely accurate list of the Inklings (JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis's literary club) on the Web was put there by, uh, me. Everything else about the Inklings that went beyond the most casual and superficial detail is inaccurate either by spotty incompleteness or by actual error. (I found one site asking for more information on the Inklings, especially "Clive Stapledon", a person who does not exist. So I wrote the guy. This was months, possibly years, ago. Any change? I just checked: nope, the request is still there.) However, there's plenty of good books about the Inklings. Books, remember them? Many people don't. >> That all human knowledge is on the web is one of the great pernicious >> misapprehensions of our time. > >Fortunately, I don't think I know anyone who honestly believes that. I've found plenty of people who dishonestly believe it. Whether they'd really agree with the proposition if you pinned them down, I'm not sure. But they behave as if they believe it. Ask them a question, they ask Jeeves, and if that doesn't help, it never occurs to them it could be somewhere other than the web. Read the quote at the bottom of my home page. Fictional characters like Willow popping up floor and heating-duct plans of City Hall on the web, just like that, don't help. This is pure fantasy, as much as her witchcraft, but I'm not sure people realize that. There was an X-Files episode in which the agents are investigating a mysterious shape. So they look up its coordinates in the Library of Congress online database of Mysterious Shapes, and find it. That must have had LC rolling in the aisles. They haven't even finished putting their entire _card catalog_ on the web! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:44:57 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 05:30:29PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > Item: I'm making a catalog of my classical record collection. Information > on living and recent composers who aren't fully covered by music > encyclopedias is amazingly spotty. Some of them are covered in amazingly > complete, precise, and accurate detail on the web. Others, absolutely zip. > > For medieval and Renaissance composers, other than the well-known ones, > there is no web information outside of proprietary dictionaries, and > occasional record catalogs and library lists which don't tell you anything > than the name of the piece. I've mostly looked for "contemporary classical" (ie, the stuff from after about 1950 that Tower would put in their Classical room), avant-garde, improv, and (in a whole 'nother area) ecto music, and the info's been pretty good. OTOH, I continue to be baffled that record companies, upon releasing CDs, don't take the obvious step of entering CD information into CDDB-equivalents. With a lot of this, it depends on the random obsessive and his support community. For example, Andre Chaudron has put up a quite good Cage discography, and there's a very good one for Morton Feldman. Fortunately, as the population of the Web explodes, the odds of finding one person willing to put in the energy for a topic increases (though it also increases the possibility of someone doing it badly). > Read the quote at the bottom of my home page. URL? > > Fictional characters like Willow popping up floor and heating-duct plans of > City Hall on the web, just like that, don't help. This is pure fantasy, as > much as her witchcraft, but I'm not sure people realize that. There was an > X-Files episode in which the agents are investigating a mysterious shape. > So they look up its coordinates in the Library of Congress online database > of Mysterious Shapes, and find it. That must have had LC rolling in the > aisles. They haven't even finished putting their entire _card catalog_ on > the web! Yeah, I curl in dread everytime a character on TV goes online, especially when they hit a site and you see lots and lots of images popping around. And when it takes a few seconds to get through the heaviest site security. OTOH, I get the feeling that in a lot of media, you'll see errors in whatever area you know best. Most of what I see on Jewish mysticism in movies, TV, the Web, and, for that matter, books, just makes me want to curl up under a desk in frustrated resignation. Yeah, the web is not the best place for detail. But still, it is quite simple and effective to at least take the step of, in this instance, entering the string "quorn" into Google and seeing if a town in England's apparently official Web page comes up. Which it did. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:04:13 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/villains From: "allenw" > > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poor Spike, so > insightful except when it comes to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he > still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very Important is these sorts > of situations. "His former self" indeed... Oo, are you implying that he might be made human again? Berni (Let's hope they skip the wimpy-and-a-really-lousy-poet part.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:34:32 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet Hi, >Would you like me to start keeping a log of all the things I've been unable >to find via Google? > >It's a very long list. Wow. You must be killer at the game of Googlewhack. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:44:25 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/villains Hi, Todd posted: >SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yow! I don't think WB would have ever showed Warren >getting skinned. Probably not. I had just resigned myself to the fact that Willow was going to wuss out and relent, too. Should I feel immoral over the fact that I cheered when Warren met his demise? >I'm still thinking about this one. The final line of >the preview for "Two to Go", where Buffy tells Willow >she'll show her "what a Slayer really is" is downright >chilling. No kidding. Even more chilling to me, though, was Willow's final words in the episode: "One down." Eeeep. Though I get the feeling she's not going to want to stop at Jonathan and Andrew. >My favorite part was when Willow repeated the "bored >now" line that evil vampire Willow used to use. Oooh, yes!! Didn't Angel say something to the effect of when people become vampires, their own dark natures get amplified? Evil vampire Willow has been lurking inside her all along. Gayle commented: > This was pretty grim, but it didn't have much in the way of plot >surprises. (In fact, for BUFFY, a surprising lack of surprises.) It pretty >much went straight and twistless along the plot route that was set up last >week. I think that for a change, twisty plot routes weren't required in this case. Sometimes it's good for the road to remain a straightaway, if even for a little while. I think they're setting up something with Spike, though. And Dawn. Dawn *really* wants to join the gang, and stumbling across Tara's body was an obvious parallel to Buffy stumbling across Joyce. Tara was a surrogate mother figure for Dawn, after all. Warren's already been taken care of, but I have a feeling Dawn will figure somehow in the finale. allen added: >Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to get. Poor Spike, so >insightful except when it comes to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he >still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very Important is these sorts >of situations. "His former self" indeed... I'm with Berni -- do you think he's going to end up human?? They've already done that with Darla, albeit on a different show. I'd hope that if they do go that way, they figure out a fresh way to handle it. On another, more random note: what was up with Anya's Puritan getup in the Magic Box? I laughed out loud ... ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:53:25 -0400 From: meredith Subject: a/this week Hi, I can't remember the title of this week's _Angel_ ... S P O I L E R S P A C E Just a couple things: - -- What the heck kind of a demon *is* Cordelia, anyway?! (Rob is calling her "Demona Troi". ) Judging from the glowey effect that's happened both times she's done her glowey thing, I'm thinking TPTB made her something closer to an angel than a demon ... but then those are just two sides of the same coin, depending on which theology you read. - -- Some very cute lines this week. "That's a sentence I never want to hear again." - -- Does anyone believe that Holtz really was reformed? Me, I'm thinking he planned the whole thing, especially considering how he had whasername stab him to make it look like he'd been nailed by a vampire. That way he could ensure that Steven/Connor would want to destroy Angel. This season is all set up to end very, very badly. (It's summer already?!) ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:27:05 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/villains On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:44:25PM -0400, meredith wrote: > >SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think they're setting up something with Spike, though. And Dawn. Dawn > *really* wants to join the gang, and stumbling across Tara's body was an > obvious parallel to Buffy stumbling across Joyce. Tara was a surrogate > mother figure for Dawn, after all. Warren's already been taken care of, > but I have a feeling Dawn will figure somehow in the finale. Also, I vaguely recall Joss saying that Amy would be back, doing something important. I'm kinda hoping that Jonathan and Andrew survive -- it's looking more like they were pretty much Warren's stooges, and certainly don't quite deserve his fate. > >Which is almost certainly *not* what he's going to get. Poor Spike, so > >insightful except when it comes to himself. Almost 200 years old, and he > >still hasn't learned that exact wording is Very Important is these sorts > >of situations. "His former self" indeed... > > I'm with Berni -- do you think he's going to end up human?? > > They've already done that with Darla, albeit on a different show. I'd hope > that if they do go that way, they figure out a fresh way to handle it. I suspect that he'd be a more comedic character when human. And probably would now be a better poet. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:34:19 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ Double Meat is Double Sweet At 06:44 PM 5/15/2002 , Joseph wrote: >I've mostly looked for "contemporary classical" (ie, the stuff from after >about 1950 that Tower would put in their Classical room), avant-garde, >improv, and (in a whole 'nother area) ecto music, and the info's >been pretty good. ... >With a lot of this, it depends on the random obsessive and his support >community. Precisely. Some they have, some they haven't. There is, or wasn't when I checked, a good list of Alan Hovhaness's works online. All I could find was a bad transcription of a long outdated printed catalog, and even that wasn't easy to find. (It was neither prominent nor easily identifiable by searching under his name: I found it by using my Patented Websearching Technique.) >Fortunately, >as the population of the Web explodes, the odds of finding one person >willing to put in the energy for a topic increases (though it also >increases the possibility of someone doing it badly). Despite the vast explosion in web size, the amount of actual research information (as opposed to raw data) on the web is still minute compared to the reference section of any good college library. And the number of things done badly, because it's all amateur ... it's frightening. And the story I told about "Clive Stapledon" is very typical, I've been told similar stories by others: even those incorrect folks who _ask_ for more information won't do anything with it. > > Read the quote at the bottom of my home page. > >URL? Oh now. You could look me up in Google. I'm not hard to find. But very well: http://www.stanford.edu/~dbratman/ >Yeah, the web is not the best place for detail. But still, it is quite >simple and effective to at least take the step of, in this instance, >entering the string "quorn" into Google and seeing if a town in England's >apparently official Web page comes up. Which it did. In fact, I misread Multimap. It was down, and what I got was an error message, not a "not found" message. Quorn is there. But apart from that: first, Multimap (http://uk2.multimap.com) is a web site, so I'm hardly denigrating web sites. It's a website with a complete street and highway map of Great Britain, of much higher quality than a lot of online maps. Second, you can rely on Multimap (as long as you don't misread its error messages), a fact which I know only because I've used it extensively. What of the Google result? What if it hadn't been there? What if it had been buried beneath websites referring to the fungus? And lastly - don't laugh - - what if the website were a hoax erected by the fungus people? Or somebody else? There are such websites ... I've seen a complete and thorough website, with episode list, collectibles guide, photos and drawings, and so forth, for an old tv show that _did not exist_. Somebody just made it up. (Sorry, I can't remember what it was called, but I think I found it linked from BoingBoing (http://www.boingboing.net) some time last year. In other words, finding that website does not prove Quorn exists. You have to verify it, from some less impeachable source. The problem is, on the web there are few such sources. Certainly not the first thing that comes up on Google, despite its supposed reliability sorting (which isn't that, really). ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #69 ****************************