From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #60 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Tuesday, May 7 2002 Volume 04 : Number 060 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/tuesday [allenw ] Re: b/tuesday [meredith ] Re: b/tuesday ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/tuesday [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/tuesday ["David S. Bratman" ] b/Buffy as a Marvel character ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/tuesday ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/tuesday [Joseph Zitt ] Re: b/tuesday ["Berni Phillips" ] o/giles update [meredith ] Re: b/tuesday [Joseph Zitt ] Re: o/giles update ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: o/giles update [meredith ] Re: b/Buffy as a Marvel character [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/tuesday ["David S. Bratman" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 07:25:49 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/tuesday On Mon, 6 May 2002, meredith wrote: > Fortunately, I have a couple friends who have also cheated and watched, so > I have someone to discuss it with before Tuesday. > Likewise. And I agree. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:28:53 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/tuesday Hi, David predicted: >Oh dear. Already, after last week's episode, I was feeling manipulated, >and the preview ("most shocking BTVS ever!" - what, more than Buffy dying? >the second time?) only made me feel more so. Usually, producers of a show don't have much say (if any) over the previews. There certainly weren't over-the-top previews like that back in the days of the WB, so I'm thinking that's a UPN thing. >I'm defining "manipulated" as feeling that the events arise more from a >desire to shock and/or stir things up than from any organic plot >necessity. And no, the fact that the characters remain true to type does >not excuse this. Assuming you consider that they have, which I don't >think is entirely true. I would wait until I actually saw the episode before I made any pronouncements about it. ================================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ================================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ==Next Up: Jessica Weiser & Emily Wells 5/12/02== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:43:50 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/tuesday At 03:28 PM 5/6/2002 , Meredith wrote: >David predicted: No, I didn't predict anything. I stated my feelings about what I've seen so far: to wit, last week's episode and the preview. There is plenty of precedent on this list for having one's appetite whetted by previews. There is therefore no reason why one cannot equally feel dismayed, instead. >Usually, producers of a show don't have much say (if any) over the >previews. There certainly weren't over-the-top previews like that back in >the days of the WB, so I'm thinking that's a UPN thing. For some strange reason, I thought that, regardless of other factors like the UPN house style, the preview might also - just maybe, go along with me out on a limb here - reflect the content of the episode. Wow, what a shocking idea! Certainly the hints dropped here about the episode tend to bear that out. >>I'm defining "manipulated" as feeling that the events arise more from a >>desire to shock and/or stir things up than from any organic plot >>necessity. And no, the fact that the characters remain true to type does >>not excuse this. Assuming you consider that they have, which I don't >>think is entirely true. > >I would wait until I actually saw the episode before I made any >pronouncements about it. I was discussing last week's episode, not this week's. For instance, I don't consider the fact that Willow acted like Willow (computer geek plus foot-in-mouth person) or that Xander acted like Xander (he wants to be macho, but doesn't know how) to be an organic cause of the denouncement of last week's episode. The character I was thinking of who acted least true to type was Anya. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:42:50 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/tuesday IIRC, the preview didn't say "the most shocking BTVS ever," but "the biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale," or words to that effect. A bit of a difference there. While Buffy's death may have arguably been the biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale (and her initial arrival may also be arguably so), usually "the biggest thing ever to happen" to a place means something noticed by the greatest number of its citizens. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:02:22 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/tuesday Whatever. I wait to see what will be more noticeable than having the entire town trashed by a band of demon bikers, which I also thought rather over-the-top. Somehow, having things noticed by a large number of people has never seemed a particular measure of importance in BTVS, especially with the "demon amnesia" often noticed by viewers and occasionally even remarked on in the show. Perhaps conspicuousness in this sense is what drove the UPN announcer to speak in tones of excitement, but I tend to doubt it. If it's "bigger" in the other sense, it'll have to be bigger than Buffy dying. Twice. Huh. At 05:42 PM 5/6/2002 , Gayle wrote: > IIRC, the preview didn't say "the most shocking BTVS ever," but "the >biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale," or words to that effect. A bit >of a difference there. While Buffy's death may have arguably been the >biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale (and her initial arrival may also >be arguably so), usually "the biggest thing ever to happen" to a place means >something noticed by the greatest number of its citizens. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:28:10 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: b/Buffy as a Marvel character Patience - it'll get there. > > Any baby boomer worth his salt can tell you what made Marvel great: The > typical DC Comics superhero had been a starchy do-gooder in tight pajamas, > about as supple as a lady candidate for the G.O.P. The innovative characters > of the 60s and 70s were Marvels: They didnt live in fakey nom de plume > cities, like Gotham or MetropolisPeter Parker lived in Queens, for > chrissake!and they had real-world problems, like dead ex-girlfriends and > dead-end jobs. Under Stan Lees editorship, the stable of Marvel superheroes > grew ever more kinky and beguiling, unlike anything comics had ever seen. > Today we live in a Marvel world. DC capitulated long ago, turning Batman in > the 80s into a Marvel character, renaming the book Dark Knight and handing > it over to Frank Miller, the artist behind Marvels Daredevil. (Its > essentially Mr. Millers vision that ended up on screen in the Batman films.) > The television show Smallville recounts the early years of a confused, very > Peter Parkerlike Clark Kent, ambivalent about his burgeoning superpowers. > And, of course, the great nerd allegory Buffy the Vampire Slayer is nothing > but a clever reincarnation of all the "O cursed spite" preoccupations from > the Marvel heyday. - - Stephen Metcalf, New York Observer, currently at http://www.observer.com/pages/book1.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:12:55 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/tuesday From: > IIRC, the preview didn't say "the most shocking BTVS ever," but "the > biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale," or words to that effect. A bit > of a difference there. While Buffy's death may have arguably been the > biggest thing ever to happen to Sunnydale (and her initial arrival may also > be arguably so), usually "the biggest thing ever to happen" to a place means > something noticed by the greatest number of its citizens. > > Gayle I hope it's good and not too upsetting. David mentioned the demon bikers getting ready to take over the town. Memorable Sunnydale events also include blowing up the high school, the entire town coming down with laryngitis, and snow. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 22:06:30 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/tuesday On Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:02:22PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > I wait to see what will be more noticeable than having the entire town > trashed by a band of demon bikers, which I also thought rather over-the-top. > > Somehow, having things noticed by a large number of people has never seemed > a particular measure of importance in BTVS, especially with the "demon > amnesia" often noticed by viewers and occasionally even remarked on in the > show. Interestingly, the Prom Night episode showed that people were aware that the town had a rather high body count, and that Buffy was helping lower it. One thing I'd been wondering about, but hadn't studied in detail, is what I think I'm seeing as a change in the view/handling/role of demons over the history of the show. At first, it seemed that they were a relatively rare occurance, and always deeply evil. Nowadays, they're all over the place, having their own bars, vampire bordellos (or whatever you'd call that place that Riley was found in), and other hangouts, and often being neutral or downright cuddly (like the goofy guest at the locked-in-the-house party). Is this an actual change, and if so, an intentional one? Has this been discussed to death already? > Perhaps conspicuousness in this sense is what drove the UPN announcer to > speak in tones of excitement, but I tend to doubt it. > > If it's "bigger" in the other sense, it'll have to be bigger than Buffy > dying. Twice. Huh. Well, since it's the biggest thing to happen to *Sunnyvale*, I'd think in terms not of Buffy's death but of, say, the transformation of the Mayor and destruction of the high school. Though the massive flying demon infestation that Buffy's death cured musta been a tad traumatic, if her dying didn't just completely rewind the event. (Now picturing Meth jumping up and down, holding her tongue to keep from telling us *-] ) - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:35:53 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/tuesday From: "Joseph Zitt" > > One thing I'd been wondering about, but hadn't studied in detail, is what > I think I'm seeing as a change in the view/handling/role of demons over > the history of the show. This would be a good discussion topic. > Well, since it's the biggest thing to happen to *Sunnyvale*, I'd think > in terms not of Buffy's death but of, say, the transformation of the > Mayor and destruction of the high school. Sunnydale. Sunnyvale is where I work. It's not on a hellmouth -- it's on more of a heckmouth. (Favorite birthday card: "I went to hell and back to get you this card. (There's a card store by where I work.)") And yes, it's happened the other way around. One year, at the Sunnyvale Art & Wine Festival, someone bloopered the balloons. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:09:37 -0400 From: meredith Subject: o/giles update Hi, SciFiWire has some news about the BBC Giles series: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-05/06/12.00.tv Basically, it's still in development hell, but Tony Head hopes something can get going early next year. ================================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ================================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ==Next Up: Jessica Weiser & Emily Wells 5/12/02== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 23:04:22 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/tuesday On Mon, May 06, 2002 at 07:35:53PM -0700, Berni Phillips wrote: > > Well, since it's the biggest thing to happen to *Sunnyvale*, I'd think > > in terms not of Buffy's death but of, say, the transformation of the > > Mayor and destruction of the high school. > > Sunnydale. Sunnyvale is where I work. It's not on a hellmouth -- it's on > more of a heckmouth. (Favorite birthday card: "I went to hell and back to > get you this card. (There's a card store by where I work.)") And yes, it's > happened the other way around. One year, at the Sunnyvale Art & Wine > Festival, someone bloopered the balloons. Gah, I knew I'd make that mistake sometime. I useta work for a company that had its headquarters out there, which I visited a few times. OTOH, the most reasonable suggestion for the horrific way in which the higher-ups ruined the company was that they were possessed by demons. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:51:37 -0700 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: o/giles update Anyone seen the new ASH series, Manchild? It is a bit of a hoot. ASH plays a guy who can't get it up without help, and he gets it, with some enlargment. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:53:10 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: o/giles update >Anyone seen the new ASH series, Manchild? > >It is a bit of a hoot. ASH plays a guy who can't get it up without help, and >he gets it, with some enlargment. ?!? What is this, and where is it airing? ================================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ================================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ==Next Up: Jessica Weiser & Emily Wells 5/12/02== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 00:06:47 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/Buffy as a Marvel character I have posted on this theme before, that Marvel was the ancestor of Buffy. People who came to comics-reading age after the whole concept of superheroes had been changed by Marvel rarely grasp how revolutionary Marvel was, in giving superheroes real lives and family issues and financial pressures and emotional hangups to deal with, as well as putting sparkly wisecracks in their mouths. My own Marvel phase was 1963-1965, abruptly cut short by the trauma of our mother's destruction of our comic book collection, but when I first discovered Buffy 30+ years later I immediately recognized Buffy's debt to Marvel. I wouldn't call Buffy as much a reincarnation as a descendant of Marvel, but overall I think that that quote is right on target as far as Marvel's far-reaching cultural influence and the fact that you have to be over a certain age (old enough to remember pre-Marvel) to recognize it, since "Today we live in a Marvel world." Gayle > Any baby boomer worth his salt can tell you what made Marvel great: The > typical DC Comics superhero had been a starchy do-gooder in tight pajamas, > about as supple as a lady candidate for the G.O.P. The innovative characters > of the 60s and 70s were Marvels: They didnt live in fakey nom de plume > cities, like Gotham or MetropolisPeter Parker lived in Queens, for > chrissake!and they had real-world problems, like dead ex-girlfriends and > dead-end jobs. Under Stan Lees editorship, the stable of Marvel superheroes > grew ever more kinky and beguiling, unlike anything comics had ever seen. > Today we live in a Marvel world. DC capitulated long ago, turning Batman in > the 80s into a Marvel character. > The television show Smallville recounts the early years of a confused, very > Peter Parkerlike Clark Kent, ambivalent about his burgeoning superpowers. > And, of course, the great nerd allegory Buffy the Vampire Slayer is nothing > but a clever reincarnation of all the "O cursed spite" preoccupations from > the Marvel heyday. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:55:08 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/tuesday At 08:06 PM 5/6/2002 , Joseph wrote: >On Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:02:22PM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote: > > > Somehow, having things noticed by a large number of people has never seemed > > a particular measure of importance in BTVS, especially with the "demon > > amnesia" often noticed by viewers and occasionally even remarked on in the > > show. > >Interestingly, the Prom Night episode showed that people were aware that >the town had a rather high body count, and that Buffy was helping lower >it. That's one of the examples I was thinking of. The town is (or at least then was) infested by vampires feasting voraciously, and all that people are aware of is that there's "a rather high body count." Another example is "Hush", where the tv announcer seems to believe that the town-wide laryngitis is probably a hoax. >One thing I'd been wondering about, but hadn't studied in detail, is what >I think I'm seeing as a change in the view/handling/role of demons over >the history of the show. > >At first, it seemed that they were a relatively rare occurance, and always >deeply evil. Nowadays, they're all over the place, having their own bars, >vampire bordellos (or whatever you'd call that place that Riley was found >in), and other hangouts, and often being neutral or downright cuddly (like >the goofy guest at the locked-in-the-house party). > >Is this an actual change, and if so, an intentional one? Has this been >discussed to death already? It sure seems like a change to me, and I consider it something like a case of drug addiction among the writers (and viewers): higher and higher doses of danger and drama are needed to retain that kick. The first season seems so low-key and downright subtle compared to what's going on now; the main positive change has been some terrific character development, but that's not directly connected to what you're discussing. > > Perhaps conspicuousness in this sense is what drove the UPN announcer to > > speak in tones of excitement, but I tend to doubt it. > > > > If it's "bigger" in the other sense, it'll have to be bigger than Buffy > > dying. Twice. Huh. > >Well, since it's the biggest thing to happen to *Sunnyvale*, I'd think >in terms not of Buffy's death but of, say, the transformation of the >Mayor and destruction of the high school. Though the massive flying >demon infestation that Buffy's death cured musta been a tad traumatic, >if her dying didn't just completely rewind the event. Indeed, which is why I wrote "'bigger' in the other sense," i.e. in the events of the show as we and the principal characters perceive them, having already discussed "bigger" in the first sense, i.e. in the perception of the average Sunnydale bystander. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #60 ****************************