From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #36 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Friday, March 8 2002 Volume 04 : Number 036 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/parents and children ["Hilary L.Hertzoff" ] Re: Tonight's BUFFY [Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury ] Re: b/parents and children [Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury ] Re: a/who is Connor? ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: a/who is Connor? [allenw ] Re: angel spoiler ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: a/who is Connor? ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/parents and children ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: a/who is Connor? ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/parents and children [meredith ] Re: b/parents and children [Robert Stacy ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:35:37 -0500 From: "Hilary L.Hertzoff" Subject: Re: b/parents and children On Wednesday 06 March 2002 23:40, you wrote: > Hi, > > Hilary exampled: > >The Bad Beginning by Lemony Snicket (and sequels) > > Ah, Lemony Snicket. a.k.a. Dan Handler, one of my weirder college > classmates (in a class which also included Mike White, of _Freaks and > Geeks_, _Chuck and Buck_ and _Orange County_ fame, that's saying > something). He's going to be giving a presentation at our reunion in May, > so even if Joss isn't there it'll still be an interesting afternoon of > panels. :) > There's a lovely little blurb that he did for Neil Gaiman's next book (Coraline) , which Neil posted in his web journal. www.neilgaiman.com and click on journal. It's in the current month, but you need to scroll down a bit. The Lemony Snicket books are making the rounds of the library staff. When we can get them...they're never in. Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:00:34 -0700 From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury Subject: Re: Tonight's BUFFY At 08:10 PM 3/6/02 -0800, Marta Grabien wrote: >> When you're discussing the latest episode of _Angel_, could you please >> change the subject line to reflect that? I've opened several messages >> thinking they're about "Hell's Bells", but instead I'm finding stuff out >> about _Angel_ that I really don't wanna know until I see the episode. > >oops..sorry. Yeah. What Marty said. Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:02:19 -0700 From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury Subject: Re: b/parents and children At 11:40 PM 3/6/02 -0500, meredith wrote: >Hilary exampled: > >>The Bad Beginning by Lemony Snicket (and sequels) > >Ah, Lemony Snicket. a.k.a. Dan Handler, one of my weirder college >classmates (in a class which also included Mike White, of _Freaks and >Geeks_, _Chuck and Buck_ and _Orange County_ fame, that's saying >something). He's going to be giving a presentation at our reunion in May, >so even if Joss isn't there it'll still be an interesting afternoon of >panels. :) FWIW, I read THE BAD BEGINNING, and while I could see that it was supposed to be funny, I didn't laugh. A case of varying mileage, I guess. Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:08:08 -0700 From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury Subject: a/who is Connor? At 11:26 PM 3/6/02 -0600, allenw wrote: >Thought so initially, but it doesn't make much sense given Sahjan's >actions and attitude last ep. I still think Connor is Gru... I don't recall you saying so, but that's an interesting idea--especially considering how much Groo looks like Angel when he's wearing the right clothes and with the right haircut. Speaking of Sahjahn's actions at the end, those have puzzled me, too. If he was trying to kill Angel all along, why did he just shrug and leave? SPOILER SPACE Because he didn't really want Angel dead, he just wanted Connor in that other dimension? Because once Connor went into that other dimension, there was no point in killing Angel? (He hadn't been able to change time--as in his own past--after all? If he hadn't wanted Connor to go into that other dimension, why did he open it?) It doesn't make sense.... Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:43:01 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: a/who is Connor? Can someone remind who Groo is? I don't remember. Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury To: ; Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: a/who is Connor? > At 11:26 PM 3/6/02 -0600, allenw wrote: > >Thought so initially, but it doesn't make much sense given Sahjan's > >actions and attitude last ep. I still think Connor is Gru... > > I don't recall you saying so, but that's an interesting idea--especially > considering how much Groo looks like Angel when he's wearing the right > clothes and with the right haircut. > > Speaking of Sahjahn's actions at the end, those have puzzled me, too. If > he was trying to kill Angel all along, why did he just shrug and leave? > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because he didn't really want Angel dead, he just wanted Connor in that > other dimension? > > Because once Connor went into that other dimension, there was no point in > killing Angel? (He hadn't been able to change time--as in his own > past--after all? If he hadn't wanted Connor to go into that other > dimension, why did he open it?) > > > It doesn't make sense.... > > Phaedre/Kathleen > workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:16:38 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: a/who is Connor? On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Susan Kroupa wrote: > Can someone remind who Groo is? I don't remember. > > Sue Cordie's beau, the Grusalug, former ruler of Pylea. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:09:36 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: angel spoiler > Can someone remind who Groo is? I don't remember. Um, the Groosalug, Cordies current heartthrob. And where is she? Making a movie? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:00:20 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: a/who is Connor? Oh, yeah. Duh. I'm slow today. :) Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: allenw To: Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:16 AM Subject: Re: a/who is Connor? > On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Susan Kroupa wrote: > > > Can someone remind who Groo is? I don't remember. > > > > Sue > Cordie's beau, the Grusalug, former ruler of Pylea. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:34:22 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/parents and children At 05:01 PM 3/6/2002 , Hilary wrote: >I suppose the books I'm thinking of are a variation on this one and >perhaps shouldn't be described as adventure books, but as survival books, >where the parents are there in body but not in any way that counts. > >a) so screwed up that they don't take care of their children / their >children end up taking care of them...essentially forcing their children >to take on the role of grownup, while pretending to the world that >everything is normal. There's also a variant in which the parent is too >ill to take care of their child. (Xander) > >b) absorbed in their work - so that they rarely see their children >(Willow) I don't see either Xander or Willow really fitting this pattern. Their parents are not significantly absent from their lives, they're absent from the parts of their lives that we see on the show, and that's what's peculiar or distorting. I do vaguely recall Willow complaining once about her mother's self-absorption - but it's not a major factor in Willow's life, or she'd complain about it more, and/or her problems would be seen as deriving from it. Xander's father was previously established as abusive - but except in this week's episode it hasn't been a major factor in the son's behavior or character. Xander is, if anything, more oppressed by than emotionally abandoned by his parents - insofar as we see this at all. He's certainly not taking care of them. He's still living at home but working for a living, a very common situation in persons aged circa 20 who aren't going to college, and in itself not a sign of parental problems at all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:39:56 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: a/who is Connor? Susan's question, who is Groo?, points out how much the plotline requires remembering the intricacies of the story from week to week. Intricate plots are fine in a novel, but I do think they may be a bit of a burden on a weekly tv series. These two are the only ones I watch, because my mental space for keeping track of intricately-plotted tv series from week to week is extremely limited. At 09:08 AM 3/7/2002 , Phaedre wrote: > >SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Because he didn't really want Angel dead, he just wanted Connor in that >other dimension? In the show-down at the end of the episode, he seemed to want Connor, rather than Angel, dead - if I recall this correctly. That seems kind of fuzzy. But I have the very distinctive impression that he did not specifically want Connor in the other dimension, which is evidently not the dimension he came from - he summoned up the dimension as a threat. When Holtz took Connor into the dimension, that surprised the demon, but he clearly considered it as good as dead. >Because once Connor went into that other dimension, there was no point in >killing Angel? (He hadn't been able to change time--as in his own >past--after all? If he hadn't wanted Connor to go into that other >dimension, why did he open it?) As a threat. He said something like, "Hand over the kid, or I'll expand this hell dimension so that you all fall into it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:23:29 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/parents and children Hi, David responded: >I don't see either Xander or Willow really fitting this pattern. Their >parents are not significantly absent from their lives, they're absent from >the parts of their lives that we see on the show, and that's what's >peculiar or distorting. I've never gotten that feeling. It hasn't been mentioned recently, but earlier on in the show Xander made frequent cracks about his clueless parents. And Willow's parents' disconnection from their daughter's life was a big part of the "MOO" episode (the one where Amy turned into a rat). >Xander's father was previously established as abusive - but except in this >week's episode it hasn't been a major factor in the son's behavior or >character. I'm not so sure about this. Xander has made references to not wanting to turn out like his family before. And in "Restless", we saw some of his fears manifest. > Xander is, if anything, more oppressed by than emotionally >abandoned by his parents - insofar as we see this at all. He's certainly >not taking care of them. He's still living at home but working for a >living, a very common situation in persons aged circa 20 who aren't going >to college, and in itself not a sign of parental problems at all. Um, he and Anya moved out into their own place early on last season ... ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ======================================= (: New England Patriots - Super Bowl XXXVI CHAMPIONS :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 02:17:09 -0500 From: Robert Stacy Subject: Re: b/parents and children meredith wrote: > > Hi, > > David responded: > > >Xander's father was previously established as abusive - but except in this > >week's episode it hasn't been a major factor in the son's behavior or > >character. > > I'm not so sure about this. Xander has made references to not wanting to > turn out like his family before. And in "Restless", we saw some of his > fears manifest. It was established awhile ago--"Amends"? Third season--that Xander preferred to spend Christmas Eve camping out in his backyard rather than listen to his family get drunk and argue. "Restless" upped the ante by showing us the cumulative psychic toll his home life has had on him. His decision in "Hell's Bells" is obviously the toughest he's ever had to make. He loves Anya, and he honestly believes the choice he's made is for the best. The all-around heartache in this episode was palpable. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #36 ****************************