From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #19 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Friday, February 15 2002 Volume 04 : Number 019 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/older and far away ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/older and far away ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/older and far away [allenw ] Re: b/older and far away ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/older and far away ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/older and far away [Todd Huff ] Re: b/older and far away ["Marta Grabien" ] RE: b/state of ["Karin Rabe" ] RE: b/state of ["Karin Rabe" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:49:12 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/older and far away > Really, I also loved how Tara behaved. OTOH, I am so > tired of whiny Dawn I'm starting to wish that Glory > had killed her after all. Amen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:45:23 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/older and far away > Words cannot express just how much I love Tara. :) > > "How's that muscle cramp, Spike? You'd better get some ice on that." > > One feels that things are finally starting to roll along. But what is up > with no new episode next week??? Is UPN giving up on sweeps, in the face > of the Olympics? Right this minute I am watching the rerun of when Spike first got chipped and tries to bit Willow. Lovely episode. Except for Cap't Cardboard. Yeh, I loved Tara's comment. Also his eyebrow grin when the massager was unwrapped. What are the two episodes next week? I have lost track. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:04:24 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/older and far away On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Marta Grabien wrote: > > > Right this minute I am watching the rerun of when Spike first got chipped > and tries to bit Willow. Lovely episode. Except for Cap't Cardboard. > > Yeh, I loved Tara's comment. Also his eyebrow grin when the massager was > unwrapped. > Should've been a Hitachi Magic Wand... > What are the two episodes next week? I have lost track. > 8 pm is the Geek Trio doing their first mess-with-Buffy contest; 9 pm is Halloween, with Dawn necking with a vampire.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:41:24 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/older and far away > > What are the two episodes next week? I have lost track. > > > 8 pm is the Geek Trio doing their first mess-with-Buffy contest; 9 pm is > Halloween, with Dawn necking with a vampire.. Ah, thanks. So an invisible Buffy for the first one and a too visible Dawn for the second. I am going out that night. Won't panic if the VCR doesn't work. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:47:54 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/older and far away It appears that we are arriving at a new consensus: Dawn is the Wesley Crusher of BTVS. YetAnother suprise from Joss. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:53:11 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/older and far away > Ah, thanks. So an invisible Buffy for the first one > and a too visible Dawn > for the second. I am going out that night. Won't > panic if the VCR doesn't > work. Actually I don't think it's the one where they turn her invisible. It's the one where they speed up time for her, make her fight demons at the construction site, and make her repeat the same few minutes at the Magic Box. Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:10:10 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/older and far away > > Ah, thanks. So an invisible Buffy for the first one > > and a too visible Dawn > > for the second. I am going out that night. Won't > > panic if the VCR doesn't > > work. > > Actually I don't think it's the one where they turn > her invisible. It's the one where they speed up time > for her, make her fight demons at the construction > site, and make her repeat the same few minutes at the > Magic Box. Well, I will try to record it then. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:03:42 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: b/state of Phaedre/Kathleen said: "I submit that "I think I was in heaven" may be the crux of the whole question. Buffy's relationship with Spike may appear to be a parallel addiction to Willow's addiction, but I think what Joss is showing with Buffy is something closer to the situation a woman finds herself in when she stays in an abusive relationship. 1) Buffy has not had great success with relationships up to now. 2) Buffy died and went to heaven, but she was not permitted to stay. Hence, Buffy believes, deep down inside, that she isn't worthy, that she doesn't deserve a true, loving relationship, and so she is punishing herself by letting Spike do "all those things" to her. She has been hurt so many times (not just in love, but in being kicked out of heaven) that she is numb to honest, simple feelings and the only way she thinks she can feel is by being hurt more. I see Buffy's situation as very similar to self mutilators, who cut themselves or pull out their hair and so on." While I have no quarrel with the first part of the above, I have to part company with your analysis at the " and so she is punishing herself by letting Spike do "all those things" to her..." statement, and with everything that follows it. Far from feeling by "being hurt more," with Spike painted as the abuser, it seems to me that while accepting the pleasure Spike does by "doing all those things to her," =she's= doing all the actual hurting, as though unconsciously defending against her low self esteem by taking revenge against Spike for her past frustrations. Or perhaps even more pertinently, by punishing him for having the audacity to love her whole-heartedly, more unconditionally than either Angel or Riley were able to, despite lacking a "soul." (I'm sure part of it, too, is reveling with this vampire in the sexual passion and heat that the other's =having= a soul deprived her of, and then feeling guilty about that!) Buffy truly is on the horns of a dilemma, if she accepts her relationship with Spike in all its complexity, and stops telling herself it's nothing but a sexual itch she should be able to resist, or something Willow's spell must have done to "change" her. After all, how can she continue to feel good about killing every vampire that aggressively crosses her path, if she's =in love= with a vampire who genuinely loves her, but who as far as she can judge refrains from killing other humans not because he has a soul, but because he has a surgical implant that makes aggression more painful to him than to his intended victim? The discovery that he =could= now hurt her is critical to intensifying this dilemma and therefore her continued denial, since his consistent =refusal= to attack her testifies to the genuineness of his feelings for her. But what I was most struck by in the last episode, was something that no one here has commented on, at least in the initial flurry of posts (I've yet to read beyond this one in the follow-up postings): Buffy mercilessly beats Spike's face to a pulp to convince herself she's justified in maintaining her denial of his genuine concern for her by attaching a selfish motive to his willingness, in this instance, prevent her by force from turning herself in to the police, and his only response is to tell her we only (always?) hurt the one we love. Since he loves her he clearly needs to believe this of her, but Spike's record for accuracy in his expressed insights into Buffy is formidable, and he's never hesitated to confront her with the truths she least wants to accept. And later in the same story line, when she realizes Warren killed his girlfriend, she repeat's Spike's quote and applies it to Warren. Seems to me this implies at least a beginning if indirect acknowledgment of the fact that she has feelings for Spike -- and that he didn't deserve the hurt =she's= been dishing out! Personally, when she was beating him in a manner that reminded me as well as Donald and others of Faith's projected self-hatred I nevertheless got extremely angry with her, and totally sympathized with Spike. I'm amazed that any regular viewer would see him as the abusive one in this relationship, or as not offering her a "true, loving relationship" that she simply can't see herself in with him because he's a vampire. Spike is the masochistic character in this duo, just as he was with Drue, but that doesn't change the fact that he loves her enough to do anything for her -- and for Dawn -- as well as enough to tell it to her like it is, whatever the consequences. I for one hope she's eventually able to appreciate those realities. - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:28:35 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: b/state of Well said, Dawn, about Buffy and Spike's sex life --I'm with you there! Although I'm still wondering what on earth they were doing to end up =under= the carpet at the beginning of last episode! I also really liked a shorter comment you made in a later post: "I don't think the Slayer belongs to the dark; I think she's a bridge between light and dark. Being a bridge is uncomfortable and lonely (echoes of Robin McKinley's Luthe here) and Spike would like to place both of them firmly on the side of night. He wants Buffy with him out of protectiveness as well as simple greed. But it isn't that easy for either of them, no matter what they wish." Perhaps in that sense he does threaten harm, =if= she feels vulnerable to being drawn over to the side of darkness. But if we move it out of the abstract and the realm of mere wishfulness, can Spike really imagine he could get her there? What would that mean, in practical terms? Wouldn't he have to make her into a vampire to accomplish it? And so far, he's shown no indication of wanting to do =that=. I think he loves her too much to do that. So it would seem that much as he might like to draw her into his realm, loving her has drawn him closer to hers, instead. Which is a nice irony given her avowed disinclination to do any such thing, and her refusal to even realize it's happening. "Um... I don't think the only reason all the sex feels good is that it's fulfilling a self-mutilation compulsion. I kind of got the impression that it's really great sex. And what's kinky about what they're doing, aside from their choice of partner? They're probably playing rougher than most people could handle, but they seem to wake up the next day with nothing worse than a few bruises and hickeys. I think what's making Buffy freak is that these games are perfectly reasonable... if you trust someone. What she's letting Spike do to her isn't really the whips and chains -- is anyone who watches TV scared of a pair of handcuffs? This is sitcom territory! -- it's the letting him in." ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #19 ****************************