From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #16 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, February 11 2002 Volume 04 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/state of ["David S. Bratman" ] m/expressionism ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/state of ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: m/expressionism ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/state of [meredith ] Re: m/expressionism ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/state of ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: m/expressionism ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: m/expressionism ["Vicki V." ] Re: m/expressionism ["Marta Grabien" ] Re: b/ASH ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/ASH [meredith ] Re: b/ASH [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/ASH ["Marta Grabien" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:58:09 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/state of At 04:12 PM 2/9/2002 , Phaedre wrote: >Hence, Buffy believes, deep down inside, that she isn't worthy, that she >doesn't deserve a true, loving relationship, and so she is punishing >herself by letting Spike do "all those things" to her. > >She has been hurt so many times (not just in love, but in being kicked out >of heaven) that she is numb to honest, simple feelings and the only way she >thinks she can feel is by being hurt more. This sounds very likely to me - from what I know of how characters behave in fiction and in self-help books. (I've never encountered such behavior in real life, but I'm willing to buy in to the consensus alternate universe in which it's common behavior.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:10:45 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: m/expressionism So I spent yesterday in San Francisco attending two concerts. The first, the latest in a survey of Shostakovich's major chamber music compositions, featuring a group called the Alexander Quartet. This time, the Piano Trio No. 2 and the String Quartet No. 8, two of the most somber and despairing masterworks ever written. (The Quartet has 3 out of 5 movements in Largo, the slowest of tempi, and wasn't outdone until No. 15, which has 5 out of 5.) Then, to the San Francisco Symphony for an extravaganza of expressionist music, Schoenberg's Five Pieces and Theme and Variations, and Mahler's Lied von der Erde, the latter an orchestral song cycle over an hour long. This was an Educational Experience for me: I do not like either of these composers, and had never actually heard all of Das Lied before, but Michael Tilson Thomas is the world's leading Mahler conductor these days, the orchestra is fabulous, and featured baritone Thomas Hampson is greatly renowned. (I saw a friend there who goes to every Hampson concert he can get to.) The music-making was very fine, and now at least I've heard the whole damn thing, but I left liking Mahler not one whit more than I did going in. I'm just not a dionysian, I guess. Nor can I think of this work without being reminded of Tom Lehrer's "Alma": Their marriage, however, was murder He'd scream to the heavens above "I'm writing Das Lied von der Erde And she only wants to make love!" This (Mahler and Schoenberg, not Lehrer) is the program that the SF Symphony is taking to Carnegie Hall this week, Donald, so if by chance you should attend, which I think you'd get a lot of, it'd be almost as good as if you came out to the new Maxwell Davies symphony which they're doing next month, and which I do have a ticket for. Report to follow. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:40:40 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/state of From: "Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury" > > 1) Buffy has not had great success with relationships up to now. > > 2) Buffy died and went to heaven, but she was not permitted to stay. > > Hence, Buffy believes, deep down inside, that she isn't worthy, that she > doesn't deserve a true, loving relationship, and so she is punishing > herself by letting Spike do "all those things" to her. Bingo! I think we have a winner! > She has been hurt so many times (not just in love, but in being kicked out > of heaven) that she is numb to honest, simple feelings and the only way she > thinks she can feel is by being hurt more. > > I see Buffy's situation as very similar to self mutilators, who cut > themselves or pull out their hair and so on. And what did Buffy do recently, after being called "Blondie" one too many times? Cut off her hair! Berni ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:47:33 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: m/expressionism > So I spent yesterday in San Francisco attending two concerts. While I went to Berkeley to see Imago Theater's "Frogs". A delightful (and very funny) program. I am watching a TV program, Jonathan Creek, with Anthony Steward Head as the magician. Apparantly he only did a few epicodes, but you can see him in the beginning credits. No accent, btw. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:50:32 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/state of Hi, Phaedre noted: >2) Buffy died and went to heaven, but she was not permitted to stay. > >Hence, Buffy believes, deep down inside, that she isn't worthy, that she >doesn't deserve a true, loving relationship, and so she is punishing >herself by letting Spike do "all those things" to her. > >She has been hurt so many times (not just in love, but in being kicked out >of heaven) that she is numb to honest, simple feelings and the only way she >thinks she can feel is by being hurt more. I think you're misreading the cause of Buffy's removal from heaven. She wasn't "not permitted to stay" or "kicked out" by The Powers That Be up there: it was her friends back on earth who didn't allow her to stay there. I think if she had actually been kicked out by the ruler(s) of heaven itself, instead of ripped back to life by her selfish friends she might indeed have those feelings of unworthiness ... but without the spell, she would still be happily enjoying her eternity in heaven. I would think that any deep-seated feelings she may harbor about that would be more along the lines of resentment towards Willow et al. rather than self-destructive feelings of unworthiness. >I don't really know why Joss is making it look like Buffy's situation is >parallel to Willow's addiction because Buffy is self-destructive in a >different way from what you might call "normal" addictions. I don't see this. Any kind of addiction ends up being very self-destructive. I'm having a hard time articulating why I think both situations are two sides of the same coin ... let's try this. Willow's addiction to magic ended up hurting people that she loved, which in turn caused much hurt to herself: first she lost Tara, then she almost lost Dawn by her own hand. Buffy is allowing Spike to hurt her, and in turn she is starting to lose people that she loves, first and foremost Dawn. Both are headed for the same outcome (assuming that Buffy doesn't immediately get her act together after her confession to Tara). Both Willow's and Buffy's addictions are self-destructive in the same way, in that they are each absorbed in themselves at the expense of the people they love. While Buffy is with Spike, she's experiencing the same amount of pleasure that Willow did when she was doing magic. The only difference is, afterwards Buffy experiences some extreme self-loathing, while that didn't happen to Willow until she hit rock bottom. The end result to both is the same: extreme guilt and remorse. Though Willow was able to stop, Buffy isn't there yet. Argh ... that wasn't a very good explanation either, but I hope you get the idea. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ======================================= (: New England Patriots - Super Bowl XXXVI CHAMPIONS :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:47:47 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: m/expressionism At 11:47 AM 2/10/2002 , Marty wrote: >I am watching a TV program, Jonathan Creek, with Anthony Steward Head as the >magician. Apparantly he only did a few epicodes, but you can see him in the >beginning credits. No accent, btw. No accent? He doesn't use one in Buffy either, does he? I mean, he really is British, right? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:47:40 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/state of At 11:50 AM 2/10/2002 , meredith wrote: >I think you're misreading the cause of Buffy's removal from heaven. She >wasn't "not permitted to stay" or "kicked out" by The Powers That Be up >there: it was her friends back on earth who didn't allow her to stay there. If Buffy is self-destructive in the way Phaedre posits, this distinction isn't important. Buffy knows intellectually that she wasn't kicked out, but she _feels_ kicked out. In the same pop psychology books from which I learn this stuff, I read that the death of a loved one can cause a person to feel resentment against the person who died. This is irrational unless the person committed suicide or otherwise clearly contributed to their own death, but the feeling arises anyway. What's more: within the Buffyverse, if the Powers work at all like they were shown to on _Angel_, it's entirely possible that Willow's spell, which as I recall was in the form of an entreaty to the Powers (or somebody like them), wouldn't have worked without their agreement to kick Buffy out. I agree with your supposition that Buffy probably hasn't hit bottom yet. I wonder if Willow really has. She seems suspiciously placid for somebody who was wading hip-deep in it a few weeks ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:56 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: m/expressionism > No accent? He doesn't use one in Buffy either, does he? I mean, he really > is British, right? He is really British, but he is using an accent. So is Marsters, who isn't British. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:34:56 -0800 From: "Vicki V." Subject: Re: m/expressionism ASH's normal accent is quite different from Giles. Spike sounds like ASH. Vicki V. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:57:39 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: m/expressionism > ASH's normal accent is quite different from Giles. Spike sounds like ASH. That is what I heard, but in the TV show, Jonathan Creek, he =almost= spoke like an American. He was playing a stage magician and had a pure voice. The English seem to do all sorts of accents well, except when they are doing an American one. Then thier voices go very flat. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:01:20 -0800 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ASH At 02:18 PM 2/10/2002 , Marty wrote: >He is really British, but he is using an accent. So is Marsters, who isn't >British. All right, I really don't follow you here. Are you saying that ASH as Giles is using a _different_ British accent than his normal one? Then you wrote, >In the TV show, Jonathan Creek, he =almost= spoke >like an American. But earlier you'd written that he spoke with "no accent". So is his natural accent "almost American"? That would seem an odd description of a Brit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:06:22 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/ASH Hi, >All right, I really don't follow you here. Are you saying that ASH as >Giles is using a _different_ British accent than his normal one? Yes, he is. When he speaks normally, he does sound more like Spike than Giles. It'd be like if someone from Iowa was affecting a Southern accent. >But earlier you'd written that he spoke with "no accent". So is his >natural accent "almost American"? That would seem an odd description of a >Brit. Not presuming to speak for Marty, but I read that as "no accent" from the perspective of a Yank, i.e. he's talking with an American accent. Was I reading that right, Marty? ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ======================================= (: New England Patriots - Super Bowl XXXVI CHAMPIONS :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:57:08 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/ASH In a message dated 2/10/02 9:11:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, meth@smoe.org writes: << Yes, he is. When he speaks normally, he does sound more like Spike than Giles. It'd be like if someone from Iowa was affecting a Southern accent. >> You are right. I have met him, at a con. His "real" accent is the one he used in "Band Candy." Not exactly the same accent as Spike's, but indeed more like Spike's than Giles'. In fact, his bad-boy demeanor in "Band Candy" is a lot closer to ASH's real personality than (normal-mode) Giles is. The funny thing is, I met him at that con before I ever saw Buffy. When I watched Buffy, I was very impressed by the startling difference between him and Giles. It's like the difference between Spike and Giles. Speaking of the subtle regional differences in Brit accents, there is a character in the new Enterprise series who seems to me to have exactly the same accent as Wesley. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:12:42 -0800 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/ASH > >All right, I really don't follow you here. Are you saying that ASH as > >Giles is using a _different_ British accent than his normal one? > > Yes, he is. When he speaks normally, he does sound more like Spike than > Giles. It'd be like if someone from Iowa was affecting a Southern accent. > He is an actor. A good one. He uses a voice that goes with his character. As Giles, he is playing a highly educated person. Thus the accent. His actual background is less so, thus his real voice. > >But earlier you'd written that he spoke with "no accent". So is his > >natural accent "almost American"? That would seem an odd description of a > >Brit. > > Not presuming to speak for Marty, but I read that as "no accent" from the > perspective of a Yank, i.e. he's talking with an American accent. Was I > reading that right, Marty? Well, actually no. An English version of an American accent is a rather flat speaking voice. IE Little or no intonations. The accent in the Creek Series is almost an educated one, but not quite. It is the accent of someone who had voice training for the stage. His character is a stage performer. By the way, the actor who took over for ASH in the role plays it rather gay. ASH's character was anything but. I think they de-emphasized the role after ASH left. I assume he was offered Buffy. From what I have heard about British actors pay, it was a terrific move. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #16 ****************************