From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #168 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, November 1 2001 Volume 03 : Number 168 Today's Subjects: ----------------- comments10/31 ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: comments10/31 ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: comments10/31 [Todd Huff ] Re: comments10/31 [meredith ] Re: comments10/31 ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: comments10/31 [meredith ] Re: comments10/31 ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: comments10/31 [Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:19:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: comments10/31 Halloween Edition, I guess. David: Thanks for sending me after "The Macbeth Murder Mystery," which I'd read a long time ago but remembered even less well than you did. I found it at the library in the Thurber volume of The Library of America, edited by Garrison Keillor, a considerable value as it seems to have nearly everything I know of that one might want to have by Thurber, including "The 13 Clocks," usually a short illustrated book but here fitting in 35 pages of straight prose. One of his best pieces. "The Macbeth Murder Mystery" is only four pages long, but absolutely hilarious throughout, a paradigmatic example of "the =New Yorker= piece" (a form that Thurber doubtless helped to invent). For those unfamiliar, it concerns a woman of Thurber's acquaintance who accidentally picks up =Macbeth= thinking it's a mystery, and "solves" it by concluding that the real murderer is Macduff (he discovered the body, after all)--in fact he was the mysterious Third Murderer. Thurber then rereads the play and comes up with an even stranger theory: the murderer is Lady Macbeth's father, who secreted the body under the bed and got in it himself when his daughter entered (thus her line about Duncan looking like her father); he also is a nameless Old Man who shows up briefly, and one of the three witches! The most hilarious thing is that these (mis)readings can be supported by the text of the play. A real gem of a piece. It's very like something I read once and have never been able to find again, which "proves" that Robert Frost's "Stopping By the Woods on a Snowy Evening" is about Santa Claus. Really! I agree with you that the "alternate Macbeth" I posited would not be =as good= as the one that exists; my mild point was that it would be =a= good story too. One of Hughes' points in his exposition is that Macbeth is one of the most dramatically explosive of Shakespeare's plays precisely because the conflict is internal (Lady Macbeth is an externalization, symbolically, of an aspect of Macbeth which she awakens). And I also agree that =Buffy= is more like Tolkien than Shakespeare in the way you state. Marta: Yes, I've heard about the =Buffy= cast and their Shakespeare readings. Wouldn't that be something to observe. Berni: Good point about =Buffy= being an alternate world with its own "theology." I've always stressed the idea that the show is a fantasy through and through, not a realistic work with a fantasy underlay (which is the way mainstream critics tend to treat it). And also good point about swords being used as crosses; something I've seen mostly in vampire movies, no big surprise. Yes, Willow's intentions are good (I do believe she sincerely believes Buffy was in Hell), but she is very misguided; and clearly power is corrupting her. Nice reminder about necromancy being unChristian, too (though, true, Willow is Jewish; but isn't Judaism just as respectful of the dead?). There's an important debate that's barely been touched on in this context: Willow was very clear and very adamant that her raising Buffy was completely different from Dawn trying to raise Joyce; but we have to read this in the context of many similar statements from Willow that are clearly at best self-delusion. Spike, on the other hand, sees no difference between the two situations. Buffy =does= seem "recovered" in that there is no overt damage or impairment of her ability to function, but her personality has certainly changed. Interesting to see where this goes. Now some comments on the two most recent episodes. Two annoyances, first, about "Life Serial," very beginning and very end: I guess they had to deal, at least briefly, with Angel and his reaction to Buffy's revival; but it seems cruel to bring it up and then not let us in on the scene. Schedule conflicts and network conflicts, yeah yeah, but I bet if they'd really wanted to they would have figured out a way. And Giles giving Buffy a big check seems to me flatly anticlimactic to the big deal they made about Buffy's money troubles. Especially if it turns out that they never mention the issue again. I didn't have a problem with the fact that Giles has money, however; he was both a Watcher and a school librarian for several years, got a big retroactive payday when the Council reinstated him, and the Magic Box apparently makes money; and what did he ever spend it on except books (and betcha that was on his Council expense account)? Anyway. The structure of the episode is very interesting--here are the timings: 4:00 Teaser (Buffy's house/trio council of war) 5:15 Act I (time acceleration) 7:45 Act II (construction/demons) 10:30 Act III (time loop) 12:30 Act IV (Buffy & Spike/coda with Giles) So after a long teaser that sets up the situation, we have four neatly-separated setpieces: the three tests and the "final jeopardy" with Buffy and Spike out on a drunk. And each act longer than the preceding one. To me they seem subjectively the same length, so from that point of view each one is more compact. Very odd. I particularly liked the first act; the time acceleration was a neatly dizzying effect. I take Meredith's point that it stretches character motivation to have Tara simply walk away from what must have been a seemingly-preoccupied Buffy; the only rationalization I can think of is that she couldn't wait for her, or walked away before she noticed Buffy wasn't following. But it's a flaw. And I =loved= the bit where Buffy goes to class with Willow and gets that wonderfully bewildered expression while the jargon flies thick. And it wasn't gibberish, either; it's very much like some of the stuff I've been reading (Foucault or Jameson maybe). Very well done. Buffy the Construction Worker was not as funny as I'd hoped (though hearing the guys calling her "Gidget" and "Britney"--50s and 90s archetypes, as it were--was definitely amusing), a pretty routine Buffy Wastes the Demons. But it worked in the context. And the timeloop worked very well, too, though it seemed particularly foreshortened because that sort of thing needs some narrative space to set up a structure complex enough to have interesting variations on the repeats; I'm guessing, without checking, that the somewhat-similar looping in last season's "The Weight of the World" (Willow visiting Buffy's mind) had more breathing room. Here, each iteration seemed to get shorter, giving a feeling of acceleration. Studying the internal structure of this act might be very interesting. And the last act was particularly fascinating in relation to Buffy's changing character. Seeing her deliberately setting out to get drunk was unsettling; we know she likes beer ("Foamy!"), but there was that hilarious double "Eeuw" to Spike's bourbon flask in "The Crush" last season; obviously she still doesn't like the taste (her repeated "Bleeah!" cracked me up every time), but she kept at it determinedly. And note she explicitly admitted she's more comfortable with Spike than anyone else. Also note she reacted not at all to Spike twice referring to her as his "lady," something she'd have decked him for last season. Another situation whose development will bear watching. I don't know if the Terrible Trio is a joke that will wear off or keep on ticking, but for now it's quite amusing: the argument about James Bond was pitch-perfect, it's good to have Jonathan back and onstage a lot, and Warren has become an interesting character as well. (Andrew doesn't work as well for me.) They haven't done anything really =evil= yet, and it remains to be seen if they actually will. (I still think Willow will turn out to be the major antagonist of the season.) On to last night's "All the Way." The further development of Dawn the Bad Girl ups the stakes (pardon the pun); she's going to make Buffy's life very difficult. And I liked the way they handled the Xander and Anya situation: one tension of the season resolved, and not before time. Particularly intriguing were Dawn's and Buffy's very different wistfulness towards them: Dawn's almost hungry, Buffy's happy for them but depressed about herself once she was alone. I'd read a spoiler about Willow's and Tara's argument, and I was surprised at how little there was of it (much less than the more explosive one they had last season): basically the flat disagreement on the idea that Willow was doing magic too much, and no real elaboration. And Willow's spell against it was almost casual, which in itself was a bad sign even if we didn't suspect it was going to cause more trouble than it solved. In short, to me the season continues a quite satisfying course; and now we live in apprehension whether the musical is going to work or not. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:10:51 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: comments10/31 From: "Donald G. Keller" > > Yes, Willow's intentions are good (I do believe she sincerely believes > Buffy was in Hell), but she is very misguided; and clearly power is > corrupting her. Nice reminder about necromancy being unChristian, too > (though, true, Willow is Jewish; but isn't Judaism just as respectful of > the dead?). The issue, at least in Catholic Christianity, is not about respect for the dead but about usurping the power of God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in #2116, "All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future. [footnote here referring to Deut. 18:10 and Jer. 29:8] Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone." #2117 condemns all practices of magic and sorcery. Sounds sort of like Willow, huh? She's moved from power over things to power over people. Boy, is Tara going to be majorly p***ed when she ultimately catches on to Willow's putting a spell on her to make her forget. > And Giles giving Buffy a big check seems to me flatly anticlimactic to the > big deal they made about Buffy's money troubles. Giles is still a father figure to Buffy -- look at how she dumped talking to Dawn on him at the end of this week's episode. I was surprised there was not more reaction from him to that. > And I =loved= the bit where Buffy goes to class with Willow and gets that > wonderfully bewildered expression while the jargon flies thick. And it > wasn't gibberish, either; it's very much like some of the stuff I've been > reading (Foucault or Jameson maybe). Very well done. I thought this was a great way to underscore how rusty Buffy's academic skills were. > I'd read a spoiler about Willow's and Tara's argument, and I was surprised > at how little there was of it (much less than the more explosive one they > had last season): basically the flat disagreement on the idea that Willow > was doing magic too much, and no real elaboration. And Willow's spell > against it was almost casual, which in itself was a bad sign even if we > didn't suspect it was going to cause more trouble than it solved. I remarked to David afterwards that Willow is becoming more and more dependent on using magic on a day-to-day basis. She's turning into one of those sitcom witches who can't function as a mortal when told not to use her magic. It's becoming a major addiction and is driving a wedge between her and all her relationships. But, hey, didn't you love Giles' little pep talk to Xander on the staircase? > In short, to me the season continues a quite satisfying course; and now we > live in apprehension whether the musical is going to work or not. I, for one, am very excited about the musical episode. I can't wait! Of course, I'm one of those people who tends to break into song regularly anyway, so for me it will be totally normal. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:30:34 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: comments10/31 > On to last night's "All the Way." The further > development of Dawn the Bad > Girl ups the stakes (pardon the pun); she's going to > make Buffy's life > very difficult. And I liked the way they handled the > Xander and Anya > situation: one tension of the season resolved, and > not before time. > Particularly intriguing were Dawn's and Buffy's very > different > wistfulness towards them: Dawn's almost hungry, > Buffy's happy for them but > depressed about herself once she was alone. > The medallion that Dawn stole last night. Was that the talisman that Anya's old boss (D'Hoffra?) gave Willow? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:59:30 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: comments10/31 Hi, >Yes, Willow's intentions are good (I do believe she sincerely believes >Buffy was in Hell), but she is very misguided; and clearly power is >corrupting her. Oh, yes. *Big* time. Berni added: >Willow is becoming more and more >dependent on using magic on a day-to-day basis. She's turning into one of >those sitcom witches who can't function as a mortal when told not to use her >magic. It's becoming a major addiction and is driving a wedge between her >and all her relationships. That's exactly it. In the mundane non-Buffyverse, she'd be spiraling into a serious problem with drugs or alcohol, but here it's magic. And because it's magic, she can add insult to injury by pulling stuff like casting a spell on Tara to make her forget about their fight. (Big mistake.) Willow has been my favorite character in the Buffyverse for so long that I'm feeling like one of the gang in this ... I hate to see what she's doing and very afraid to see where it's going to lead. But then I'm sure that's the point. Back to Don's ruminations: >Buffy =does= seem "recovered" in >that there is no overt damage or impairment of her ability to function, >but her personality has certainly changed. Interesting to see where this >goes. Her personality may have changed, but she's still hilarious. "Is there anyone here who just came to make out?! Oh, that's nice. You run." That had me on the floor. She's still refusing to face up to her responsibilities, though. She still doesn't have a job, and she foists Dawn's disciplinary action off on Giles rather than take care of it herself. I too was surprised that Giles didn't call her on it ... but maybe he realized that in that situation Dawn might listen to him more than she would Buffy. Buffy's in for a seriously rude awakening when Giles announces that he's going back to England. >Two annoyances, first, about "Life Serial," very beginning and very end: I >guess they had to deal, at least briefly, with Angel and his reaction to >Buffy's revival; but it seems cruel to bring it up and then not let us in >on the scene. Schedule conflicts and network conflicts, yeah yeah, but I >bet if they'd really wanted to they would have figured out a way. I think they did it just to hammer home the point that there really can be no more crossovers, kids. I can't imagine that Joss would be hoping the fans will bombard the WB with complaint mail over it, but who knows. I'm sure it's happening anyway. >And Giles giving Buffy a big check seems to me flatly anticlimactic to the >big deal they made about Buffy's money troubles. Especially if it turns >out that they never mention the issue again. I don't think they'll never mention it again. But that's just me. >On to last night's "All the Way." The further development of Dawn the Bad >Girl ups the stakes (pardon the pun); she's going to make Buffy's life >very difficult. I knew instantly that the boys would turn out to be vampires, but I still enjoyed the way it all played out. What is she doing with all the stuff she's stealing, anyway? And why have none of her victims in the gang noticed? >And I liked the way they handled the Xander and Anya >situation: one tension of the season resolved, and not before time. I don't think it's completely resolved. Xander clearly hadn't thought everything through, judging from his reaction when Giles mentioned the house (which I'm sure was premeditated on Giles' part - he didn't look too pleased about the whole thing), and Anya went on about kids and all. Reality is smacking him upside the head. I don't think we've seen the last of this wedding thing. >I'd read a spoiler about Willow's and Tara's argument, and I was surprised >at how little there was of it (much less than the more explosive one they >had last season): basically the flat disagreement on the idea that Willow >was doing magic too much, and no real elaboration. My only complaint about the Willow/Tara relationship has been that there really isn't enough chemistry between Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson to make the relationship believable. Granted, the Xenite in me has been irrevocably spoiled by the crackling chemistry that Lucy Lawless and Renee O'Connor had, but the dance that Faith and Buffy did at The Bronze that time packed more sexual energy into thirty seconds than I've ever seen between Willow and Tara. This makes it hard for me to care too much when they're having a fight. It comes across to me as two people reading lines, not two lovers arguing. >In short, to me the season continues a quite satisfying course; and now we >live in apprehension whether the musical is going to work or not. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if _Xena_ can make not one, but *two* musicals work, then we have absolutely nothing to worry about. :) ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:32:02 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: comments10/31 - ----- Original Message ----- From: meredith To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: Re: comments10/31 > > She's still refusing to face up to her responsibilities, though. She still > doesn't have a job, and she foists Dawn's disciplinary action off on Giles > rather than take care of it herself. I too was surprised that Giles didn't > call her on it ... but maybe he realized that in that situation Dawn might > listen to him more than she would Buffy. Buffy's in for a seriously rude > awakening when Giles announces that he's going back to England. One thing that has annoyed me all along is why, with all of Buffy's financial problems, haven't Tara and Willow agreed to pay rent? > > >And Giles giving Buffy a big check seems to me flatly anticlimactic to the > >big deal they made about Buffy's money troubles. Especially if it turns > >out that they never mention the issue again. I thought the check was too easy also. > > What is she doing with all the stuff she's stealing, anyway? And why have > none of her victims in the gang noticed? I got the idea that Dawn was just saying that stuff to look cool, in the same way that she tried to pretend she'd already had her first kiss. > My only complaint about the Willow/Tara relationship has been that there > really isn't enough chemistry between Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson to > make the relationship believable. Granted, the Xenite in me has been > irrevocably spoiled by the crackling chemistry that Lucy Lawless and Renee > O'Connor had, but the dance that Faith and Buffy did at The Bronze that > time packed more sexual energy into thirty seconds than I've ever seen > between Willow and Tara. This makes it hard for me to care too much when > they're having a fight. It comes across to me as two people reading lines, > not two lovers arguing. Amen!! Sue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:17:11 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: comments10/31 Hi, Susan responded: >One thing that has annoyed me all along is why, with all of Buffy's >financial problems, haven't Tara and Willow agreed to pay rent? I've just been going with the assumption that they have done so, but offscreen. I could be wrong, though. >I got the idea that Dawn was just saying that stuff to look cool, in the >same way that she tried to pretend she'd already had her first kiss. We've seen her steal other stuff, though: remember Willow's earrings last season? ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:48:43 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: comments10/31 Oh, I'd forgotten about that. Bad Dawn! Sue - ------- "The Niman Project" now out in the sff.net anthology BONES OF THE WORLD - ----- Original Message ----- From: meredith To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:17 PM Subject: Re: comments10/31 > We've seen her steal other stuff, though: remember Willow's earrings last > season? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:38:06 -0700 From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury Subject: Re: comments10/31 At 11:17 PM 10/31/01 -0500, meredith wrote: >We've seen her steal other stuff, though: remember Willow's earrings last >season? Is there something magical (or at least connected to magic--as in the earrings belonging to a witch) about all the things she's stealing? I seem to recall that she swiped something else already this season, but can't think what it was. :S And I think she's stealing specific things for a reason . Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #168 *****************************