From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #151 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, October 4 2001 Volume 03 : Number 151 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [none] [owner-stillpt@smoe.org] Re: b/bargaining [meredith ] da/premiere [meredith ] Re: b/bargaining ["David S. Bratman" ] b/bargaining2 ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: b/bargaining2 [meredith ] Re: b/bargaining2 [Todd Huff ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:27:15 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-stillpt@smoe.org Subject: [none] smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f93F9xv1015280 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.burgoyne.com (pmg.burgoyne.com [209.197.2.30]) by smtp.burgoyne.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f93F9rt13627 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:09:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20011003081339.3827d44e@pop.burgoyne.com> X-Sender: workshop@pop.burgoyne.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:13:39 -0600 To: stillpt@smoe.org From: Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury Subject: well? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I know, it's a deep subject. I was just wondering what you all thought.... Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com Sender: owner-stillpt@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:45:08 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/bargaining Hi, Spoiler space for your reading comfort ... It's a very strange feeling to be agreeing with David. I sat there for two hours going "okay, so when is the big twist going to come that's going to set everything on its ear and make this a real _Buffy_ episode" ... and it never came. Everything happened just exactly as I figured it would (even before reading the spoilers, which turned out to be spot-on), and that's a huge disappointment. Of course, I still harbor hope that the twist will come in the next episode or two -- after all, we had no clue that the spell the gang did during the demise of the Initiative would turn out to summon the First Slayer, until it happened the next week. There were certainly enough hints dropped throughout this premiere that Willow is going to have the Osiris spell come back to haunt her, and in a very very bad way. I would much rather have seen at least one, maybe two episodes from the summer first -- the fixing of the Buffybot (which I would assume would have creeped everyone out at first, especially Dawn), Willow and Tara moving in, the gang dealing with Buffy's death in general. I could've handled a few episodes of SMG as the Buffybot, since she's so hilarious in the role. On to the specifics: >I have to start with the spookiest part, however. I suspect Joss Whedon >knew sometime =last season= that he was going to bring down the >Glory-built tower in a heap; certainly the episode was in the can before >Sept. 11th, and certainly he had no way of knowing how it was going to >resonate =now=. Oh, no kidding. When it fell I got a feeling of shaking dread that I know I wouldn't have had prior to 9/11. By far the creepiest scene, though, was the one where Buffy woke up in, and then tried to get out of the coffin. That's an old recurring nightmare, and I really didn't need to see it onscreen. >The revived Buffy's demeanor was very strange (kind of a cross between >CaveSlayer in "Beer Bad" and the noblewoman in "Halloween")...but it's >more understandable, and more resonant, the second time through when you >realize that she thinks she's in Hell. It made sense to me right off. She's just been brought back from the dead, and had to dig herself out of her own grave. I'm surprised she came back to herself even that little bit on the tower with Dawn. >And Anya was very funny too, especially about pulling a rabbit out of a >hat. That was the second-funniest moment, behind Tara's "grrr! argh!" with the little monster, which Todd also pointed out. I was on the floor at that one ... absolutely brilliant. Todd mentioned: >I've been wondering about the economics of magic in >this world. The Urn of Osiris, that special box that >Cordelia had to get to imprison that one demon (sorry >I can't recall all these names), one would think that >these unique magic items would carry a very hefty >(i.e. new BMW or more) price tag but other than casual >remarks about the expense, we get no further >explanation. Minor kvetching, I know, but it bugs me. I was wondering about that too, actually. The only thing I can think of is that the seller wasn't aware of just what it was -- but still, an ancient Egyptian artifact wouldn't have a $20 minimum bid even on Ebay (though the Ebay angle *was* pretty funny). I'm waiting nervously to see what next week's episode might bring. If Buffy is all better right from the get-go, I'm going to be seriously pissed off. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:49:41 -0400 From: meredith Subject: da/premiere Hi, I finally got around to watching the _Dark Angel_ premiere episode last night, after _Buffy_ was over. Like Don said, they were definitely trying to do too much. It would have worked better as a two-parter. Then we could have seen more of Max in Manticore (I have to say I'm disappointed she got out so quickly, it would've been interesting to see her in there for at least a few episodes), and more of a satisfying reunion with Logan (who needs to see a barber, like, now). Did I fall into a microsleep, or did we not see Max's introduction to whoever that girl is that kept coming in and out of Logan's place? I'm sure there would have been a few smartass comments from Max, and I'm sorry I missed them. And they killed Renfro!! Nana Visitor was *so* good. I wish she could've been the villain longer. They did manage to put together an interesting premise for this season, though. The virus adds a rather unexpected dimension to Max and Logan's relationship, and all those mutants running around (not to mention Vincent - - er, I mean Joshua :) should add some cool plotlines. Of the three season premieres thus far, though, I'd have to say _Angel_'s was the best. And that's pretty scary. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:13:49 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/bargaining At 03:45 PM 10/3/2001 , Meredith wrote: >Hi, > > > > > > >Spoiler space for your reading comfort ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It's a very strange feeling to be agreeing with David. hmph. >Of course, I still harbor hope that the twist will come in the next episode >or two -- after all, we had no clue that the spell the gang did during the >demise of the Initiative would turn out to summon the First Slayer, until >it happened the next week. There were certainly enough hints dropped >throughout this premiere that Willow is going to have the Osiris spell come >back to haunt her, and in a very very bad way. Berni and I are still waiting for the penny to drop on Willow's useless attack on Glory. >I would much rather have seen at least one, maybe two episodes from the >summer first -- the fixing of the Buffybot (which I would assume would have >creeped everyone out at first, especially Dawn), Willow and Tara moving in, >the gang dealing with Buffy's death in general. Oh yes. But one begins to suspect that the show is intended to move in real time. They can't show you what happens during the summer because there are re-runs. Besides, they have to leave room for all the BTVS novels to be written that take place between seasons. >I could've handled a few >episodes of SMG as the Buffybot, since she's so hilarious in the role. Me too, but maybe SMG didn't want to. >By far the creepiest scene, though, was the one where Buffy woke up in, and >then tried to get out of the coffin. That's an old recurring nightmare, >and I really didn't need to see it onscreen. And a very very old urban legend. People used to go so far as to do things like build coffins with speaker tubes in them, so that if the dead person turned out to be alive and awoke, they could be heard from outside. I think Cecil Adams discussed this once, though I can't find it on his web site. >I'm waiting nervously to see what next week's episode might bring. If >Buffy is all better right from the get-go, I'm going to be seriously pissed >off. It won't be the first time for me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:24:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/bargaining2 Todd: Agreed, Tara's "grr, argh" was a sidesplitting in-joke, There's a lot of stuff in the episode I didn't mention in my preliminary remarks. For example, Michelle Trachtenberg had a =lot= to do in the episode, and she did a really good job, as usual; kudos especially to her apprehensive faux smiles during the Parent Day scenes. Meredith: There certainly are a lot of Alison Hannigan fans out there; and though I'm a bigger fan of SMG, I hasten to point out that Alison Hannigan is absolutely crucial to the show and has been since Day One. (There are also a few people I've met who can't watch the show because they can't stand SMG. Well, she does have unlikable qualities.) David: Lots to say to your comments. The short version is that your praise is more cautious than mine, but I agree with you on a number of your points. I felt bludgeoned, too. But given that my response to art tends toward the masochistic (loud, dissonant music? Bring it on!), I regard this as a positive. After all, "Passion," one of the very best episodes ever, had a very similar relentless downer quality--quite "dire and stressful." You're not the first person I've heard say they thought it was a single episode stretched to two hours. I'm not sure I agree. I suppose some of the scenes went on a bit long, but they didn't make me impatient (because I was masochistically enjoying the tension); picking a number out of the air I suspect it was more like an episode and a half stretched to two; if they'd put only the essential stuff into a single episode we'd have felt that it was rushed, I'd surmise. Agreed, Buffy's revival was not inventive (Willow casts a big spell! Duh!). Not a positive, but I didn't think it was a negative, either. It does makes me think Joss Whedon is =much= more interested in the consequences than in the act (and as we can tell from the previews, there will be some immediate consequences). There are two major areas of concern that I'm taking a wild guess will be taken up in the episodes to come. The first is Buffy's condition. Clearly her sight and her hearing are at least temporarily impaired, and she has barely spoken three sentences since she was revived ("I have to, Dawn." "Is this Hell?" "DAWN!" and I think that's it). As you note, her monster-fighting skills seem unimpaired, but that's an instinct, or maybe a reflex, which doesn't take much conscious thought or planning. (And note that she doesn't even do that until she's attacked or others are threatened. And only Dawn's peril on the tower spurred her to action there.) She's acting something like Angel did when he first came back from Hell. Even more troubling, to me, is Willow. You can quite correctly argue, on this episode's evidence, that this major spell took something out of Willow, but no more than on previous occasions (after all, she did recover enough to do some small magics when fighting the demon). Still, I think maybe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. But that's only part of the problem. The rest of it is that Willow was 1) evasive (as Xander pointed out) 2) furtive (going off and killing the fawn without telling even Tara) 3) all "my will be done" (a quote from "Something Blue") towards the group. The way she ordered them all around and would brook no opposition or discussion was something not even Buffy at her most "I'm the Slayer" did. I got thinking today about the fact that mild-mannered Willow has a mean streak which seldom surfaces, but which we see all the way back in "The Harvest" (second part of the series premiere), where she takes revenge on Cordelia by giving her wrong information in computer class--a scene I'd forgotten until I re-saw the episode this past weekend. And I'm sure we all remember Vampire Willow's cruelties. Willow also gives in to the temptation of withering sarcasm on a number of occasions; and remember that in "Something Blue" the spell that wreaks her will makes the sarcasms literal--leading to her being offered the post of vengeance-demon. And it occurred to me that the title "Bargaining" suggests Faust. Only a week until we find out more. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:58:28 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/bargaining2 Hi, >You're not the first person I've heard say they thought it >was a single episode stretched to two hours. I'm not sure I >agree. I suppose some of the scenes went on a bit long, but >they didn't make me impatient (because I was masochistically >enjoying the tension); picking a number out of the air I >suspect it was more like an episode and a half stretched to >two; if they'd put only the essential stuff into a single >episode we'd have felt that it was rushed, I'd surmise. I thought it was a single episode stretched to two, but not by any fault of the writing. Is it just me (i.e. have I gotten too spoiled by the TiVo already), or were there many, many more commercials than usual?!? It seemed like every five minutes we were cutting to commercial, then not coming back to the show for another five. >But that's only part of the problem. The rest of it is that >Willow was 1) evasive (as Xander pointed out) 2) furtive >(going off and killing the fawn without telling even Tara) 3) >all "my will be done" (a quote from "Something Blue") towards >the group. The way she ordered them all around and would >brook no opposition or discussion was something not even >Buffy at her most "I'm the Slayer" did. Exactly. I stopped reading the spoilers a while ago, but I have seen mention of a rumor going around that this season's Big Bad is going to be Willow, as a consequence of her resurrection spell. I wouldn't be surprised. It'd be really painful for me to watch, Willow fan that I am -- but I have no doubt that Alyson Hannigan could pull it off. >And it occurred to me that the title "Bargaining" suggests >Faust. Ah, yes. The title didn't outwardly appear to have anything to do with the episode, but who knows what is about to unfold? ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/bargaining2 > For example, Michelle Trachtenberg had a =lot= to do > in the > episode, and she did a really good job, as usual; > kudos > especially to her apprehensive faux smiles during > the Parent > Day scenes. > Most touching moment in the episode (and hard to top for the season, I'll bet) was when she climbed into bed to cuddle up with Buffybot. Even I was moved. > But that's only part of the problem. The rest of it > is that > Willow was 1) evasive (as Xander pointed out) 2) > furtive > (going off and killing the fawn without telling even > Tara) 3) > all "my will be done" (a quote from "Something > Blue") towards > the group. The way she ordered them all around and > would > brook no opposition or discussion was something not > even > Buffy at her most "I'm the Slayer" did. #2 is what really worries me. I'm guessing a living sacrifice is really bad mojo and Tara knows it, but that raises the question as to whether Tara knew what all the ingredients were going to be. Was that something else Willow kept from her? I speculate so and this will lead to another spat. It was obviously blood of some sort that was being poured into the urn and when Tara has time to think, that's one thing she'll think about. > > I got thinking today about the fact that > mild-mannered Willow > has a mean streak which seldom surfaces, but which > we see all > the way back in "The Harvest" (second part of the > series > premiere), where she takes revenge on Cordelia by > giving her > wrong information in computer class--a scene I'd > forgotten > until I re-saw the episode this past weekend. And > I'm sure we > all remember Vampire Willow's cruelties. Willow also > gives in > to the temptation of withering sarcasm on a number > of > occasions; and remember that in "Something Blue" the > spell > that wreaks her will makes the sarcasms > literal--leading to > her being offered the post of vengeance-demon. Excellent point. The "little bit gay" thing came out in time. > And it occurred to me that the title "Bargaining" > suggests > Faust. Which brings us back to the bad mojo. NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #151 *****************************