From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #91 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, May 24 2001 Volume 03 : Number 091 Today's Subjects: ----------------- b/gift ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: b/gift ["David S. Bratman" ] b/gift- Josh quote from WB posting board [Linda Lodwick ] Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) [meredith ] Re: b/gift [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) [Hilary Hertzoff ] Re: b/gift ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/gift [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:03:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/gift I don't understand, it doesn't make sense, and I'm not buying it. Or, as Deirdre said when she called me up right after =Buffy= (West Coast edition), "What the hell just happened??" Let's start with: what did Buffy die from (this time)? Was it the fall? Didn't Spike fall from all the way up there and survive? Didn't Buffy and Glory both fall from a substantial fraction of that distance and get up and keep fighting? Or was it falling through the portal? Why didn't she disappear into it, then? Next. Not to get too scientific about it, but even if Dawn is "made from" Buffy (in the sense that Eve was made from Adam?), does that mean they're genetically identical? They're not =clones=, are they? And apart from their non-identity, they are separate entities; and =Dawn= is the Key. It's =her= bleeding or stopping bleeding or death that is crucial. (If Buffy had cut herself and, I don't know, mingled her blood with Dawn's or something equally ritualistic, I would be one step less querelous.) It lacks logic and self-consistency. Lastly, does Joss Whedon =really= expect us to buy Buffy's death, given that the series is contracted to last two more seasons? My reaction, frankly, was to shake my head in disbelief. I wasn't moved by it even a little. (My wild guess is that this was the ending he'd envisioned for the series when it seemed possible 5 seasons/100 episodes was the end, and just went with it even though the series will continue.) It'll be interesting to see how "Numfar" dances his way out of =this= one. More later, on episode, last few episodes, and season (time to review). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:28:18 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/gift Donald - You wrote, >I don't understand, it doesn't make sense, and I'm not buying it. > >Or, as Deirdre said when she called me up right after =Buffy= (West Coast >edition), "What the hell just happened??" I earlier wrote, >The relative (relative!, mind you) >ease with which Glory was dispatched, and the gobbledegook by which Buffy >could substitute for Dawn, don't hold up to close examination, but the >construction was good enough that in the moment it didn't matter. This is >unlike last week, which was all talk. Your second point is much of what I was thinking of, and on the same lines. The first point didn't bother me so much. >Let's start with: what did Buffy die from (this time)? Was it the fall? >Didn't Spike fall from all the way up there and survive? Spike is a vampire. He can't be killed this way, no matter how severe his injuries, unless it also involves one of the itemized methods of killing a vampire. He's gone through sufferings before that would kill a human. >Didn't Buffy and >Glory both fall from a substantial fraction of that distance and get up >and keep fighting? I don't recall how far they fell, but it wasn't anywhere near all the way. Glory is a god, so ordinary rules don't apply to her; and Buffy has superhuman healing ability also - but obviously it only goes so far or no Slayer could be killed. One fall could be within her limits and the other not, just as with ordinary humans only with different parameters. >Or was it falling through the portal? Why didn't she disappear into it, >then? It seemed to me pretty clear she didn't fall through the portal. The portal held her up as long as it existed. Maybe it sucked the life out of her. (In which case, maybe her life - though not her body - did indeed disappear into it, and that's how she'll get back. My eyes are rolling already.) And when the portal disappeared, she fell - either killing her, or she (her body) was dead already. >Next. Not to get too scientific about it, but even if Dawn is "made from" >Buffy (in the sense that Eve was made from Adam?), does that mean they're >genetically identical? They're not =clones=, are they? > >And apart from their non-identity, they are separate entities; and =Dawn= >is the Key. It's =her= bleeding or stopping bleeding or death that is >crucial. This is what I had problems with. Let's follow this through. Why does Dawn's bleeding open the portal? Because she's the Key. (Side question 1: Have we seen any indication of what would open the portal if the Key were something other than human? Side question 2: Was there any hint that the Key is useful only at a given time and place before the timing of the ritual became such an artificial plot device an episode or two ago? Side question 3: When, and how, did the minions and the brainsucked manage to build this so-inconspicuous tower?) So Dawn is the Key, and she's somehow made from Buffy. She's not a clone, obviously, or she'd look just like her; she's Buffy's sister as would have been, had Buffy had a sister. Buffy mentions "Summers blood." The notion of family blood in this way is genetic nonsense (there is exactly a 50% chance that your sibling will share any given gene with you) but it has a long mythological pedigree, so let it pass. But this still doesn't work. What makes Dawn's blood important is because it's the Key's blood, not because of its other factors. A book works as a doorstop because of its size, not because of what's written in it. The Key didn't have to be related to the Slayer: that was the monks' idea to put it under Buffy's protection. Having Buffy's blood work is like having a pocket Bible work as well as a doorstop as a 15-pound behemoth Bible does. >(If Buffy had cut herself and, I don't know, mingled her blood >with Dawn's or something equally ritualistic, I would be one step less >querelous.) Didn't she do just that? >It lacks logic and self-consistency. Welcome to the Buffyverse. >Lastly, does Joss Whedon =really= expect us to buy Buffy's death, given >that the series is contracted to last two more seasons? See my previous comment about Blakes 7. Blake wasn't dead, just disappeared, but I think the parallel is close enough. This show was also notable for its gritty psychology, for having continuing characters die off abruptly, one memorable episode where the (megalomaniacal, and possibly insane) protagonist attempted to kill off his sidekick to save his own skin, and a final episode in which _everybody_ dies. More daring in some ways than BTVS, really, but by that token there's precedent for a lot. >My reaction, frankly, was to shake my head in disbelief. I wasn't moved by >it even a little. A little, I was. If she comes back, I'll be retroactively a lot less moved than that. "Here now, I'm not dead: just resting!" >It'll be interesting to see how "Numfar" dances his way out of =this= one. Wer ist das "Numfar"? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:50:49 -0500 From: Linda Lodwick Subject: b/gift- Josh quote from WB posting board Delurking to pass on the following, posted on the usenet Buffy board: 5/23/01 *Spoiler Warnings for next year* Right now Joss is on the posting board http://www.buffy.com/slow/index_bronzepb.html Here is what he said exactly *Minor Spoiler Warnings for next year* *Minor Spoiler Warnings for next year* *Minor Spoiler Warnings for next year* joss says: (Wed May 23 08:28:44 2001 4.41.196.128) Somewhat more coherent now. Just want to say again, finally, definitively, and in LIVING color that BUFFY WILL BE BACK NEXT SEASON STARRING Sarah Michelle GELLAR (of television's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer")on UPN, TUESDAYS at 8:00. How will we bring her back? With great difficulty, of course. And pain and confusion. Will it be cheezy? I don't think so. (I've loved some of the theories here on how it might be done.) The fact is, we've had most of next season planned before we ever shot this ep. Same writers you know, same actors you love, same crappy little warehouse we've been shooting in for five years... Different network. But we've never been controlled by the network -- WB was great about that, UPN has already shown they will be too. The only difference is that Marti will share exec prod credit with me, and it's about time she did. I'm in charge. Okay, that's a lie. The STORY is in charge, the story that keeps on speaking to me, that says there is much more to tell about all these characters. An ensemble this brilliant could easily carry the show even without the Slayer -- but the fact is, even though she reached some beauty closure, Buffy's story isn't over. When it is, I'll know. And we'll stop. Til then, have faith. (not faith the character -- she's making movies and stuff.) And to answer a few other inevitable questions: Yes I am the real "Delusions of Grandeur". Er, I mean.... Yes Buffy will be black. (Er... damn.) It's none of your damn business what kind of underwear I'm wearing, but please don't tell Kai. This has been a public nuisance announcement. Kisses, j. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:39:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) Umm, what I posted before about Dawn becoming a Slayer WAS a joke. :) Anya's best episode ever. Two great ideas with using the Dagon Sphere and the troll hammer, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn later than using the Buffybot was her idea too. Loved her reaction to Xander's proposal, and the reminder of her fear of bunnies. Speaking of the Buffybot, even though they set it up earlier I was STILL surprised when Glory kicked her head off. Watching the episode a second time I realized that I had mistaken Buffybot's kind of stilted speech for Buffy's sarcastic side. The running fight between Glory and the two Buffy's was one of the best they've ever staged. Buffy as telepath (I'm tempted to say Buffy as Obi Wan) was interesting. Both Spike and Dawn heard her and I wonder if this ability showed up because of the vision quest. Serious thoughts for next year: That was one hell of a long fall for Spike. Did it break his chip? We saw Doc fall, but never got a shot of his body. He survived a sword in the chest, maybe he'll be back. I expect at least a few episodes at the beginning of the season next year to be without Buffy, and most of the season will be taken up with cleaning up after the things that entered through the portal while it was open. Those white "Alien" looking things looked interesting, and it would be a fun twist if that dragon turned out to be one in the Tolkien tradition. Picture the Scoobies sneaking into a lair filled with laptops and Rolex's rather than piles of gold coins. Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:17:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/from the joss' mouth [Forwarded from another list I'm on, which says it's taken off the bronze posting board:] joss says: (Wed May 23 00:33:51 2001 4.41.196.128) on my way to bed. I've never been so tired. (lie.) We did it. Feeling good. Killed the girl. Girl comin' back. A good thing? Nothing is simple in this life. My actors and writers and crew are unbelievable. I'm lucky to be this kind of tired. Thanks all of you for your comments and opinions, even the ones I hated. UPN will be a good home for us. 'Cause the show won't change -- except inasmuch as it's always changing. Next year is going to be intense. INTENSE. And the musical... the musical...could be the worst hour of TV ever made, but you won't be able to say we didn't go there. I'll post sometime soon, wherever the bronze may be. Need the sleep. Love the tired. j joss says: (Wed May 23 08:28:44 2001 4.41.196.128) Somewhat more coherent now. Just want to say again, finally, definitively, and in LIVING color that BUFFY WILL BE BACK NEXT SEASON STARRING Sarah Michelle GELLAR (of television's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer")on UPN, TUESDAYS at 8:00. How will we bring her back? With great difficulty, of course. And pain and confusion. Will it be cheezy? I don't think so. (I've loved some of the theories here on how it might be done.) The fact is, we've had most of next season planned before we ever shot this ep. Same writers you know, same actors you love, same crappy little warehouse we've been shooting in for five years... Different network. But we've never been controlled by the network -- WB was great about that, UPN has already shown they will be too. The only difference is that Marti will share exec prod credit with me, and it's about time she did. I'm in charge. Okay, that's a lie. The STORY is in charge, the story that keeps on speaking to me, that says there is much more to tell about all these characters. An ensemble this brilliant could easily carry the show even without the Slayer -- but the fact is, even though she reached some beauty closure, Buffy's story isn't over. When it is, I'll know. And we'll stop. Til then, have faith. (not faith the character -- she's making movies and stuff.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:38:09 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) Hi, Todd posted, >Umm, what I posted before about Dawn becoming a Slayer >WAS a joke. :) Ah, but you do raise a good point -- a new Slayer has undoubtedly been called. I hope we get to meet her next year (and that she is absolutely NOTHING like Kendra). >Anya's best episode ever. Two great ideas with using >the Dagon Sphere and the troll hammer, and I wouldn't >be surprised to learn later than using the Buffybot >was her idea too. Loved her reaction to Xander's >proposal, and the reminder of her fear of bunnies. Agreed. She was too good. They wanted her to come up with something useful, so she did. Yay. >Speaking of the Buffybot, even though they set it up >earlier I was STILL surprised when Glory kicked her >head off. Me too! That part was hilarious. "Hey, did everybody know the Slayer's a robot?" >Buffy as telepath (I'm tempted to say Buffy as Obi >Wan) was interesting. Both Spike and Dawn heard her >and I wonder if this ability showed up because of the >vision quest. Um, wasn't that Willow? I could've sworn it was. >That was one hell of a long fall for Spike. Did it >break his chip? Hmmm. I'd be inclined to doubt that. >We saw Doc fall, but never got a shot of his body. He >survived a sword in the chest, maybe he'll be back. I was thinking this, too. It seemed to me they kind of wasted Joel Grey -- maybe they were just setting something up for next year? ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:51:05 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/gift Hi, Extra! Extra!! Don doesn't like a BUFFY episode!! Film at eleven! Putting my Xenite Master Of Rationalization hat on: >Let's start with: what did Buffy die from (this time)? Was it the fall? >Didn't Spike fall from all the way up there and survive? Didn't Buffy and >Glory both fall from a substantial fraction of that distance and get up >and keep fighting? David answered this pretty thoroughly. I think he's right on all counts. >(If Buffy had cut herself and, I don't know, mingled her blood >with Dawn's or something equally ritualistic, I would be one step less >querelous.) She did. They showed a little flashback clip of it, in fact -- I can't remember which episode it was in, though. It wasn't ritualistic, but it was a mingling, as Buffy declared "it's Summers blood". >Lastly, does Joss Whedon =really= expect us to buy Buffy's death, given >that the series is contracted to last two more seasons? No -- I think what he's going for is what Rob Tapert was going for when he killed off Xena and Gabrielle two season enders ago: the question is "how will this be resolved", and not "is she really dead". >My reaction, frankly, was to shake my head in disbelief. I wasn't moved by >it even a little. I was moved, but on a delay -- to me the single most moving moment was Willow's cameo at the very end of ANGEL, just sitting there with that Look on her face. That absolutely killed me, and really brought the whole thing home. >(My wild guess is that this was the ending he'd envisioned for the series >when it seemed possible 5 seasons/100 episodes was the end, and just went >with it even though the series will continue.) You're probably right. I do have to say I like her epitaph. "SHE SAVED THE WORLD A LOT." Really. David responded: >>It lacks logic and self-consistency. > >Welcome to the Buffyverse. Well, no, actually that's more like the Xenaverse than the Buffyverse. The Buffyverse has been remarkably logic and self-consistent thus far. Which is why the end of this season sticks out so much, I think. >Wer ist das "Numfar"? The Host's cousin, the one who did the Dance Of Joy (and also the Dance Of Shame) so hilariously in last week's episode. Numfar was played by none other than Joss Whedon, which just makes the whole thing funnier. :) ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:54:05 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/gift Donald, every word you wrote speaks for my reaction to the ep as well. Thanks for saving me the type to type it up. ;-) It wasn't the falling issue so much as the not-making-sense issue... Buffy's falling stops Dawn from bleeding? Huh? It could have been a great series ender, though. The way it unified a lot of series-long threads. "Previously on BUFFY" starting with the premiere. And what was maybe the best part of the ep, for me, the rest of you guys didn't even see. That was the guys from the local WB affiliate having a "funeral" during each commercial break ("Pay no attention to the slides and swingset you see behind us! This is a cemetery!") because this was the end of BUFFY on their station. After the final shot, it cut to them standing in front of their own BUFFY headstone, with an inscription something like "RIP, BUFFY on the WB." Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:04:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Hilary Hertzoff Subject: Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) On Wed, 23 May 2001, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > Todd posted, > > >Umm, what I posted before about Dawn becoming a Slayer > >WAS a joke. :) > > Ah, but you do raise a good point -- a new Slayer has undoubtedly been > called. I hope we get to meet her next year (and that she is absolutely > NOTHING like Kendra). > Or Faith. We've already done that. > >Anya's best episode ever. Two great ideas with using > >the Dagon Sphere and the troll hammer, and I wouldn't > >be surprised to learn later than using the Buffybot > >was her idea too. Loved her reaction to Xander's > >proposal, and the reminder of her fear of bunnies. > > Agreed. She was too good. They wanted her to come up with something > useful, so she did. Yay. And the nod to her previous behavioral pattern (armageddon coming - run for the hills). My bunny approves of her fear, I think. (Of course Marble is also known for attacking my brother's cat.) > > >Speaking of the Buffybot, even though they set it up > >earlier I was STILL surprised when Glory kicked her > >head off. > > Me too! That part was hilarious. "Hey, did everybody know the Slayer's a > robot?" > I never saw it coming, though it was obvious in retrospect. > >Buffy as telepath (I'm tempted to say Buffy as Obi > >Wan) was interesting. Both Spike and Dawn heard her > >and I wonder if this ability showed up because of the > >vision quest. > > Um, wasn't that Willow? I could've sworn it was. > That was Willow. I imagine she picked Spike as the one who was most likely to get up there and do some damage. > >That was one hell of a long fall for Spike. Did it > >break his chip? > > Hmmm. I'd be inclined to doubt that. > It's an interesting thought, especially considering Spike's reaction to Buffy's death. If the chip wasn't working at that point... I think all of the falling was set up for when Buffy fell and didn't get up. Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, hhertzof@panix.com a bunny goes where a bunny must. hhertzof@wlsmail.wls.lib.ny.us - Little Bunny on the Move by Peter McCarty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:39:57 -0700 From: "Marta Grabien" Subject: Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilary Hertzoff To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 5:04 PM Subject: Re: b/gift random ramblings (spoilers for The Gift) > On Wed, 23 May 2001, meredith wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Todd posted, > > > > >Umm, what I posted before about Dawn becoming a Slayer > > >WAS a joke. :) > > > > Ah, but you do raise a good point -- a new Slayer has undoubtedly been > > called. I hope we get to meet her next year (and that she is absolutely > > NOTHING like Kendra). > > > > Or Faith. We've already done that. > > > >Anya's best episode ever. Two great ideas with using > > >the Dagon Sphere and the troll hammer, and I wouldn't > > >be surprised to learn later than using the Buffybot > > >was her idea too. Loved her reaction to Xander's > > >proposal, and the reminder of her fear of bunnies. > > > > Agreed. She was too good. They wanted her to come up with something > > useful, so she did. Yay. > > And the nod to her previous behavioral pattern (armageddon coming - run > for the hills). My bunny approves of her fear, I think. (Of course Marble > is also known for attacking my brother's cat.) > > > > > >Speaking of the Buffybot, even though they set it up > > >earlier I was STILL surprised when Glory kicked her > > >head off. > > > > Me too! That part was hilarious. "Hey, did everybody know the Slayer's a > > robot?" > > > I never saw it coming, though it was obvious in retrospect. > > > >Buffy as telepath (I'm tempted to say Buffy as Obi > > >Wan) was interesting. Both Spike and Dawn heard her > > >and I wonder if this ability showed up because of the > > >vision quest. > > > > Um, wasn't that Willow? I could've sworn it was. > > > That was Willow. I imagine she picked Spike as the one who was most > likely to get up there and do some damage. > > > >That was one hell of a long fall for Spike. Did it > > >break his chip? > > > > Hmmm. I'd be inclined to doubt that. > > > > It's an interesting thought, especially considering Spike's reaction to > Buffy's death. If the chip wasn't working at that point... > > I think all of the falling was set up for when Buffy fell and didn't get > up. > > Hilary > > Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, > hhertzof@panix.com a bunny goes where a bunny must. > hhertzof@wlsmail.wls.lib.ny.us - Little Bunny on the Move > by Peter McCarty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:26:21 -0400 From: meredith Subject: b/something else i forgot Hi, Something else I forgot to mention about "The Gift": how about the "Previously On _Buffy_" montage we got at the very beginning? The previous 99 episodes, distilled down to 60 seconds (if it was even that long). It was interesting to see how many references to the past we got here: Buffy asking Giles, "how many Apocalypses does this make, now?", the pulling out of props from past episodes (the dragan sphere, Thor's Hammer, the Buffybot), Buffy rehashing her "I quit" speech, and of course the ending, reminiscent of _Becoming 2_, where instead of sacrificing her true love to save the world, this time Buffy had to sacrifice herself. Leaps of logic aside, you have to admit that for a 100th episode, it really was wrapped up in a nice little package. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:41:20 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/gift Spoiler space... I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone has said so far, but I was thinking this morning of the episode and admiring the way they set so many things up. Episodes they we thought were stupid in some part or other were art of the plan. Willow and Anya accidentally bring forth a troll? There's the weapon Buffy uses to fight Glory. Buffybot? We (at least David and I) thought it was primarily an excuse to have another Buffy-loves-Spike episode. Instead, it was the pivot point in the relationship between the real Buffy and Spike, and I like the way they dressed the Buffybot and her hair so that you thought she was the real Buffy. As soon as Tara called Giles a killer in the magic shop, I knew he was going to be the one to actually deliver the death blow -- or snuff out the candle, as it were. Now what happens to Dawn? Foster care? I don't imagine they'll be able to track down her father in Spain -- I've gotten the impression that we're supposed to think he's pretty much forgotten his family or doesn't care. Can Giles become her guardian? Xander and Anya if they marry? (I also loved Xander's presenting Anya with a ring. I remarked some weeks ago to another online Buffy friend that I thought it quite plausible that Xander might propose to Anya. He's really growing up, and it seems that frequently, those who get jobs instead of going to college marry at younger ages than those who go to college.) Unlike my esteemed spouse, I am more than willing to tolerate yet another instance of Marvel death as long as we get Buffy back. I don't think that DNA has much to do with who gets called as Slayer. In fact, I would think that Dawn not being a "real girl" would work against it. I would hope for Dawn to discover her own talents. Now, Anya as the next Slayer would be a hoot! Berni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:57:21 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/gift Hi, Berni postulated: >Now, Anya as the next Slayer would be a hoot! LOL!!! I can see it now. Xander: "Anya, where are you going?" Anya: "I am going out. To fulfill my sacred duty as the One who is called in every generation. For yes, I am the Slayer. Now please, hand me those pointy sticks and stand back. I might stab you accidentally." ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #91 ****************************