From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #65 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Wednesday, April 18 2001 Volume 03 : Number 065 Today's Subjects: ----------------- b/forever? ["Donald G. Keller" ] b/forever [meredith ] Re: b/forever? [meredith ] Re: b/forever? [Todd Huff ] Some great non-spoiler B interviews [Todd Huff ] Re: b/&spike2 ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/forever? ["David S. Bratman" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/forever? It's all about tone, folks. First of all, anyone else catch the literary allusion in the episode? The main plot is a "retelling" of the famous horror story "The Monkey's Paw" by W.W. Jacobs (although the engine of the short story is three wishes, not necromancy); I picked it up when Doc (Joel Grey) was explaining to Dawn that it would be her mother "more or less." Very nicely played out. The new issue of the official =Buffy= magazine mentions that Marti Noxon has been promoted to co-executive producer with Joss Whedon as of next season; and boy does she deserve it. She's been with the show a long time, and I would contend that, next to Joss Whedon, she's the best writer on the show. Which is to say, if Joss Whedon didn't write tonight's episode, it had to be Marti Noxon. It did a tremendous job continuing the tone (as I said) of "The Body," and in my opinion never put a foot wrong the entire episode. Where to begin. At the beginning, why not. I wasn't particularly fooled by the spooky lighting and music: I figured out pretty quickly that Buffy was picking out a coffin for her mother. (I guess you could call that a failure of tone, but it was the only one.) A good job of introducing the emotional dissension between Buffy and Dawn in that scene. There was barely any comic relief in the episode, not surprisingly, and it all belonged to Anya, also not surprisingly. Funny =and= moving scene between her and Xander, simply funny scene with her fluttering around Dawn and Giles. =Serious= points off to Xander for being so mean to Spike. Well-presented that Spike had reasons to like Joyce a lot, and should have been permitted to express his feelings. Bad Xander. I had wondered how much Buffy & Angel we were going to get; I heartily approve of it being just the one scene, and a very good one at that. (I guess we can never assume we've had the last such scene until both shows are over.) I particularly liked the way the original Buffy & Angel theme was brought back, but with a drone in a foreign key which made it sound uneasy, or uncertain. Took me a minute to realize how perfect it was that Giles was playing Cream's "Tales of Brave Ulysses" while by himself at home: that was the song playing during Joyce's visit in "Band Candy." Very subtle dissension between Willow and Tara, also, re the book Willow magically left for Dawn. More of that to come, perhaps. As usual, Michelle Trachtenberg was terrific: the portrayal of Dawn's sullen grief was extremely well-done, and her smarts and determination too. (Clever of her to realize that you don't take an oath not to do something that can't be done.) And well done continuation of her covert activities with Spike. A nice and subtle piece of cross-reference: I noted, when Dawn said "Good," then "Good" again in a different tone (as she and Spike were leaving Doc's), that it was a very Buffy sort of double inflection (entirely believable as something a younger sister would unconsciously pick up); I didn't realize until the second time through that it was a =direct= echo of Buffy saying the same thing in the same tone(s) when Angel said he could stay a few more minutes. (By the way, I missed something: What did Dawn perceive about Doc that made her jerk her hand away from his handshake?) More Glory and Ben action. Keep the rest of the story moving too... I'm very happy to have the show back in first run again. A very funny =Angel=, well-plotted also. The whole lesbian/vampire schtick was a stitch, and I really got a kick out of the silly jokes on Harmony's name (especially "Cacophony. That's pretty. What's it mean?"). I would have thought they'd exhausted ringing changes on Harmony's character, but they got a few more good riffs out of her. Very enjoyable episode. And it's back to seriousness with Lindsay next time. Also in a week. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:47:38 -0400 From: meredith Subject: b/forever Hi, Well, the drought is over! (Unless you live in LA, in which case you've got until Saturday. Thank you, LA Dodgers. Fortunately, I live in Connecticut. WPIX only pre-empts piddly little shows like Xena for baseball. But I digress.) It was a nice little episode, with some very powerful moments (particularly the closing scene). I was pleased to see the exact scene I'd been wanting with Spike: he comes by to pay his respects, because Joyce was the only one out of the lot of them who was ever genuinely nice to him. I think Xander should have cut him a bit more slack, though. It was good when Willow pointed out to him, "he didn't leave a card." Take that, righteous boy. - -- We also got some Big Bad plot furthering, as Ben lets it slip to Glory that the key is in human form. Oops. And she was doing so well, thinking the Key was hidden in a bicycle pump instead! - -- During the funeral scene, was that Joss Whedon standing as one of the extras, with his back to the camera, closest to the viewer? It sure looked like him from that angle. - -- What was Giles listening to back at his place? Neither Rob nor I can remember the name of the band... - -- Nice to see Tara a bit more front and center, too. She was a lot more successful with Dawn than Willow was, the poor thing. (But WHAT was Willow doing, pointing her toward that book? Did she secretly want Joyce to rise again as well? That part confused me.) - -- Sweet little scene with Xander and Anya, too. "Breathe, Xander. You're turning colors." All in all I think they've gotten us back into the groove for the final run of episodes. Go, crap -- hit that fan! :) Also, while I'm here, a couple notes re _Angel_: - -- Was this episode supposed to take place before or after "Forever"? My guess is before. I would think that when Willow and Cordelia were talking on the phone, the subject of Buffy's mom would have come up even in passing. Or Angel would have mentioned something when Cordelia told him she'd talked to Willow. Or something. - -- I'm wondering: why on earth did Cordelia call Willow when Harmony came to town? As I recall, they weren't exactly the best of friends, particularly after the whole Xander thing. I would think she would've called Buffy, if she called anyone. - -- Cordelia scored some major points with me this episode, only to lose them (and then some) at the very end. Her performance against the vampires in the big battle, and her very cool "*this* is the one I'd kill you with" to Harmony rocked. I was thinking "wow, Cordelia has really come into her own, hasn't she?" But then her little display when she found all the clothes Angel had bought her regressed her right back to 11th grade. - -- I must admit, I was hoping Cordelia would dust Harmony at the end, there. I think they've taken the Harmony character about as far as she can go. But who knows -- maybe she's needed back in Sunnydale to provide a humorous twist to the Buffybot situation that's going to arise next week. - -- As usual, the Host gets the best line of the episode. "I'm thinking Harmony wasn't the best choice of names." (Or whatever he said -- I think I got that wrong, but you know what I'm referring to. :) - -- One thing I noticed about this episode was the utter predictability of it. That's what sets _Angel_ apart from _Buffy_, I think: more often than not, you can call the next bit of action. "You *know* Harmony is going to try to get a snack out of Cordelia in her sleep." "You *know* Harmony is going to sell them out to the vampires." "You *know* Cordelia isn't going to be able to pull the trigger." And lo, that's what happens. On _Buffy_, that works about once per season. (This isn't a complaint -- just an observation.) ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:07:53 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/forever? Hi again, Someone *please* slap me upside the head and install something on my computer to provide me with a medium-voltage electric shock the next time I want to check out anything having to do with either _Buffy_ or _Angel_ on aintitcoolnews.com. I just stumbled over a major, MAJOR spoiler for _Buffy_ #100, and I am *not* happy about it in the least. (It was buried in a story about something completely different, too. :P) I would hope it's wrong, but it was preceded by "gee, it's a good thing the WB made (so-and-so) sign a confidentiality agreement about not revealing that or we wouldn't have gotten the scoop!", so I think I'm pretty much screwed. Ugh. And no, I'm not going to tell anyone what it is. If you want to know, just go to aintitcoolnews.com and look for yourself. I believe the details are in an article entitled "Learn How BUFFY Ends!", which I had been studiously avoiding. Anyway. Don posted: >First of all, anyone else catch the literary allusion in the episode? The >main plot is a "retelling" of the famous horror story "The Monkey's Paw" >by W.W. Jacobs (although the engine of the short story is three wishes, >not necromancy); I picked it up when Doc (Joel Grey) was explaining to >Dawn that it would be her mother "more or less." Very nicely played out. That completely slipped by me. I thought they were doing a riff on _Pet Sematary_ - shows you how much I know. :} I didn't recognize Joel Grey, either. He's kind of a heavy-hitter to be bringing in for a cameo, dontcha think? The bit where we saw the undead-Joyce's shadow through the window behind Buffy and Dawn, just before the knock on the door *really* creeped me out. >Where to begin. At the beginning, why not. I wasn't particularly fooled by >the spooky lighting and music: I figured out pretty quickly that Buffy was >picking out a coffin for her mother. Same here - for a moment I thought, "dream sequence?" but then I realized that no, this time the nightmare was real. >I had wondered how much Buffy & Angel we were going to get; I heartily >approve of it being just the one scene, and a very good one at that. (I >guess we can never assume we've had the last such scene until both shows >are over.) You've got a point. It was kind of jarring to me just how quickly they got back into their old mode -- the last time Angel came to town, things were decidedly different. But one imagines there had been off-camera conversations between the two of them prior to that, and an entire night of sitting and talking before the kiss later on, so I guess it follows. >Took me a minute to realize how perfect it was that Giles was playing >Cream's "Tales of Brave Ulysses" while by himself at home: that was the >song playing during Joyce's visit in "Band Candy." Ah, THAT's what it was. Thanks. :) >As usual, Michelle Trachtenberg was terrific: the portrayal of Dawn's >sullen grief was extremely well-done, and her smarts and determination >too. (Clever of her to realize that you don't take an oath not to do >something that can't be done.) And well done continuation of her covert >activities with Spike. Dawn's voice when she's fighting back tears can get very grating, very fast. >A nice and subtle piece of cross-reference: I noted, when Dawn said >"Good," then "Good" again in a different tone (as she and Spike were >leaving Doc's), that it was a very Buffy sort of double inflection >(entirely believable as something a younger sister would unconsciously >pick up); Spike: "You're just a little Buffy." In more ways than one. >(By the way, I missed something: What did Dawn perceive about Doc that >made her jerk her hand away from his handshake?) His eyes got completely black (like Lyta when she was possessed by the Shadows, for the B5 fans among us). Also, he had a tail, which she'd noticed when he was puttering around looking for the book earlier. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:38:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/forever? > >First of all, anyone else catch the literary > allusion in the episode? The > >main plot is a "retelling" of the famous horror > story "The Monkey's Paw" > >by W.W. Jacobs (although the engine of the short > story is three wishes, > >not necromancy); I picked it up when Doc (Joel > Grey) was explaining to > >Dawn that it would be her mother "more or less." > Very nicely played out. > > That completely slipped by me. I thought they were > doing a riff on _Pet > Sematary_ - shows you how much I know. :} I didn't > recognize Joel Grey, > either. He's kind of a heavy-hitter to be bringing > in for a cameo, dontcha > think? I think King got the idea for Pet Sematary from The Monkey's Paw, actually. I was thinking the same thing. > > >Where to begin. At the beginning, why not. I wasn't > particularly fooled by > >the spooky lighting and music: I figured out pretty > quickly that Buffy was > >picking out a coffin for her mother. > I was thinking "dream sequence". She's gonna open it and Joyce is going to be a vampire. > > >Took me a minute to realize how perfect it was that > Giles was playing > >Cream's "Tales of Brave Ulysses" while by himself > at home: that was the > >song playing during Joyce's visit in "Band Candy." > > Ah, THAT's what it was. Thanks. :) > Yep. Great touch. > >As usual, Michelle Trachtenberg was terrific: the > portrayal of Dawn's > >sullen grief was extremely well-done, and her > smarts and determination > >too. (Clever of her to realize that you don't take > an oath not to do > >something that can't be done.) And well done > continuation of her covert > >activities with Spike. > And just why DID Spike help her? I can't say I quite buy his explanation. Perhaps just the desire for chaos. Oh, and the demon they stole the egg from has to be the worst monster costume since "Teacher's Pet." > > >(By the way, I missed something: What did Dawn > perceive about Doc that > >made her jerk her hand away from his handshake?) > > His eyes got completely black (like Lyta when she > was possessed by the > Shadows, for the B5 fans among us). Also, he had a > tail, which she'd > noticed when he was puttering around looking for the > book earlier. > And he was humming bits from "Peter and the Wolf" while he was tottering around. I can't help but think this was some deliberate foreshadowing. Xander's nastiness towards Spike has been shown to us several times now. I can't help but think that X is getting set up for some kharmic fall. As far as Angel goes, it was a hoot and easily my favorite comic episode of the series yet. Harmony sings as bad as Angel and Cordelia do (I recently rewatched The Puppet Show and was reminded of Cordy's inability to carry a tune even when sober). Have we seen any good singing characters other than Giles and the Host? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:27:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Some great non-spoiler B interviews http://www.eonline.com/Features/Features/Buffy/TheSlayerSpeaks/index.htmlJust follow the links from page to page to get the whole series. The interviews were done during filming of the 100th episode and include some fan questions. Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:49:14 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/&spike2 OK, then, if Buffy doesn't stake Spike, then why doesn't Cordelia stake Harmony at the end of this week's ANGEL? External reason: Because the filmmakers don't want to lose the character. Same as with Spike. Internal reason: Because despite everything, and the fact that Harmony has just proved herself not only a deadly threat, but a hidden one, Cordelia's affection for her just won't let her go that far. Same as with Spike. And next week, when Spike actually does build the Buffy-bot, will be the how-many'th episode in which, by means of some narrative trickery or other, Buffy loves Spike? The fourth? They are teasing with your head, Donald. They are definitely teasing with your head, and you're falling for it. Enjoy it while it lasts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:49:05 -0700 From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/forever? At 11:23 PM 4/17/2001 -0400, DGK wrote: It's all about tone, folks. First of all, anyone else catch the literary allusion in the episode? The main plot is a "retelling" of the famous horror story "The Monkey's Paw" by W.W. Jacobs (although the engine of the short story is three wishes, not necromancy); I picked it up when Doc (Joel Grey) was explaining to Dawn that it would be her mother "more or less." Very nicely played out. Well, a reference to the Monkey's Paw situation, but so general that I'd hardly call it distinctively so. The episode as a whole certainly wasn't a retelling of the story, simply because the three wishes motif is so central. Didn't somebody say uptopic that Joss had promised the viewers that Dawn would not raise Joyce from the dead? If there was such a statement, I don't consider it strictly accurate. The new issue of the official =Buffy= magazine mentions that Marti Noxon has been promoted to co-executive producer with Joss Whedon as of next season; and boy does she deserve it. She's been with the show a long time, and I would contend that, next to Joss Whedon, she's the best writer on the show. Which is to say, if Joss Whedon didn't write tonight's episode, it had to be Marti Noxon. It did a tremendous job continuing the tone (as I said) of "The Body," and in my opinion never put a foot wrong the entire episode. Yes, in some ways it was actually better than "The Body", because it avoids the previous episode's one flaw: the supernatural element is fully integrated into the human story. Tough at the best of times, this integration becomes really difficult when the human story is as tragic as this one. Full marks for that. The egregious vampire in "The Body" was excused as being necessary for the obligatory fight scene. It's worth noting, then, that there was no fight scene in tonight's BTVS. Unless you count Ben stabbing Glory's minion, which hardly qualifies. There may have been a reason for this. In this violence-free chamber, the one slap in the critical scene near the end echoes like a bell. =Serious= points off to Xander for being so mean to Spike. Well-presented that Spike had reasons to like Joyce a lot, and should have been permitted to express his feelings. Bad Xander. Yes, this schtick of his is getting a little tired. Took me a minute to realize how perfect it was that Giles was playing Cream's "Tales of Brave Ulysses" while by himself at home: that was the song playing during Joyce's visit in "Band Candy." Thank you for both explaining the reference and identifying the song. All I was thinking while it was playing was, "This is the kind of song that convinced me for years that I hated rock." That it's Cream therefore does not surprise me in the least. I did identify Peter & the Wolf, though. Interesting, yes. Significant, I dunno. That was Peter's theme, not the wolf's. By the way, the quick violin theme played in the pre-show announcements for "Angel" is an arrangement from Mozart's K.183 symphony, the one used in "Amadeus" during the Salieri madness frame scene. And it's back to seriousness with Lindsay next time. Also in a week. And an evil hand theme. Almost a Monkey's Paw reference. As well as reminiscent of the famous glove from a few years back. Query: At the end of the teaser on "Angel," he says "_____'s a bitch." Fill in the blank, please? ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #65 ****************************