From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #39 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 03 : Number 039 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: b/body2 ["Hilary L. Hertzoff" ] Re: b/body2 [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/body2 [GHighPine@aol.com] RE: b/body2 [Dawn Friedman ] RE: b/body2 [meredith ] Re: b/body2 [GHighPine@aol.com] RE: b/body2 ["Karin Rabe" ] RE: ANGEL ["Karin Rabe" ] Re: b/body2 [GHighPine@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:23:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Hilary L. Hertzoff" Subject: RE: b/body2 On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Karin Rabe wrote: > Indeed we will. Her original form and purpose, as "energy" and a "key," > suggest the latter as likely to me. But monks capable of implanting false > memories in a whole community of people as well as turning that energy into > a fully functional human being would presumably have been capable as well of > giving her some control over the energy she contains. (Did I mention that I > have some difficulty crediting the monks with all this power? :) > I don't know if this will help, but I think that the monks didn't "create" the Dawn persona but instead fit her into the shape that Buffy's sister would have been if she'd existed, like pouring jello into a jello mold. You can choose the shape of the mold you use, but there are only a limited number of shapes available. I.e. they could choose to make her Buffy's sister, but they didn't specifically choose her hair color or her friends or the memories that everyone has of her, those memories were shaped by the mold they chose for her. Was this terribly incoherent? Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, Mamaroneck Public Library a bunny goes where a bunny must. Mamaroneck, NY hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us Little Bunny on the Move hhertzof@panix.com by Peter McCarty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:07:43 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/body2 In a message dated 3/5/2001 7:25:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us writes: << I don't know if this will help, but I think that the monks didn't "create" the Dawn persona but instead fit her into the shape that Buffy's sister would have been if she'd existed, like pouring jello into a jello mold. You can choose the shape of the mold you use, but there are only a limited number of shapes available. I.e. they could choose to make her Buffy's sister, but they didn't specifically choose her hair color or her friends or the memories that everyone has of her, those memories were shaped by the mold they chose for her. Was this terribly incoherent? >> No, it makes sense, and makes sense of how the monks could know enoyugh about Buffy;'s family to create the right memories (IOW, they didn't have to). Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:07:44 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/body2 In a message dated 3/4/2001 8:45:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, rabek@email.uc.edu writes: << I think it repells and ALARMS her to have a vampire =without= a soul =love= her! She saw how genuine his devotion to Drusilla was, so she knows he's not incapable of the feeling. But directed at =her=, it's unprecedented in her experience: and what's a vampire slayer to do when the vampire who dares to love her is as harmless as he is soulless?? >> Very thought-provoking post, Karin, thanks. Reflects the complexity of the whole situation. Another point I was going to make re pity, though, is that pity destroys respect. Before, though she hated him, Buffy had some respect for Spike. Now, she doesn't even have respect for him. He's "pathetic," in her own word. And a man she could not respect would not be considered as a romantic prospect, even if she doesn't hate him as much. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:05:01 -0600 From: Dawn Friedman Subject: RE: b/body2 At 10:23 AM 3/5/01 -0500, Hilary wrote: >I don't know if this will help, but I think that the monks didn't >"create" the Dawn persona but instead fit her into the shape that Buffy's >sister would have been if she'd existed, like pouring jello into a jello >mold. *Oooh*. I like that very much. One of the things that occurred to me on my second viewing of "Crush" was that it's probably literally true that "Summers blood" runs in Dawn's veins. Giles didn't write that the monks made Dawn "in the form of a human girl, to be her sister", but "in the form of a sister." Your description would make sense of this: she's not just any young girl, grafted onto Buffy's family; she's Buffy Summers' potential sister (or one of them), made real. Dawn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:27:52 -0500 From: meredith Subject: RE: b/body2 Hi! Hilary postulated: >I don't know if this will help, but I think that the monks didn't >"create" the Dawn persona but instead fit her into the shape that Buffy's >sister would have been if she'd existed, like pouring jello into a jello >mold. Oooh, I love this too!!! It follows on the idea that there are an infinite number of parallel universes, all existing at once (_Doeppelgangland_, anyone?). Perhaps all the monks had to do was pluck Dawn out of the universe where she was indeed Buffy's sister, and plop her into this one. Which then begs the question: when Dawn's usefulness as the Key is exhausted in this universe, will she then be sent back to the old one? And if so, will Buffy et al. have any recollection that she ever existed for them? +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:20:33 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/body2 In a message dated 3/5/2001 1:43:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, meth@smoe.org writes: << Which then begs the question: when Dawn's usefulness as the Key is exhausted in this universe, will she then be sent back to the old one? And if so, will Buffy et al. have any recollection that she ever existed for them? >> I am sure that the answer to the first question is No, that Dawn will continue to be on the show for seasons hence. So the second question may never be answered. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:59:39 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: b/body2 Gayle, re: >Very thought-provoking post, Karin, thanks. You're more than welcome, since your own observations stimulated mine! :) And you went on to say, >Another point I was going to make re pity, though, is >that pity destroys respect. You'll get no argument from me there. Which I guess is why I tried to substitute the term "compassion," which needn't. > Before, though she hated him, Buffy had some >respect for Spike. Now, she doesn't even have respect for him. He's >"pathetic," in her own word. And a man she could not respect would not be >considered as a romantic prospect, even if she doesn't hate him as much. I agree she would never consider as a romantic prospect a man she couldn't respect -- and I'm not even particularly convinced she =has= any genuinely romantic but denied feelings for Spike. I think she could be "alarmed" by his own and over-react even if she's not truly tempted on some level to reciprocate. What I'm not sure I agree with, is the idea that she used to have "some respect for Spike," unless you're thinking of something like her willingness to leave her mother and sister in his care when she thought Glory was after them. That IMHO could have been sheer desperation rather than genuine respect, since she backed it up with a threat after pointing out he was the only one besides herself "strong" enough to protect them. :) Generally, it's been my impression for a long time that Buffy chooses to heap contempt on Spike even when he says or does something worthy of a little respect. For instance, there was the time he told her in terms as blunt as they were articulate some home truths about herself she was busily denying: about her unconscious death wish, among other things, I think it was. Unfortunately the details have faded from my memory, and I can't even recall which episode. I just know that when he was done telling her some things she really needed to think about if she was going to carry out her own declared mission of coming to terms with the "First slayer" or whatever she was, that appeared to her in the dreams at the end of last season, all she did was say something totally contemptuous and gratuitously hurtful to him. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again: from where I sit Spike's one true virtue is his ability and willingness to call 'em as he sees 'em, and if anything about him deserves some respect, surely it's that! Hilary, re: >Was this terribly incoherent? Decidedly not! In fact I love your explanation, and only regret finding myself so far down the line of people rushing to tell you so. It makes so much more sense to me than the idea that they created her out of whole cloth, so to speak. :) David, when I said, > >I have to say I don't see that he's done anything "under cover of being > >harmless" that's bad enough to justify Buffy's losing control of her > >scruples in a fit of "sheer fury." > You responded, > I do. Take a look at Buffy's expressions on some of those > occasions. She's almost Ralph Kramden-like at times: if looks could kill > ... but we know he'll never actually sock Alice to the moon. > I don't argue with her expression signifying a Ralph Kramden-like =wish= to stake him! My objection was to the idea that Spike's done anything bad enough to justify her =acting= on such a wish. - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:07:51 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: ANGEL P.S. About last week's ANGEL: Can anyone offer an explanation of how Lindsey was able to =locate= Angel in order to run him down and bludgeon him with a sledge hammer? (BTW, I found that scene almost impossible to watch, because it looked so real. And there's no way Angel could have recovered as quickly as he did to vanquish redneck Lindsey. :) - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:17:28 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/body2 In a message dated 3/5/2001 9:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, rabek@email.uc.edu writes: << What I'm not sure I agree with, is the idea that she used to have "some respect for Spike," unless you're thinking of something like her willingness to leave her mother and sister in his care when she thought Glory was after them. >> That sounds like you are looking for signs of trust, not respect. (And Glory appeared =after= the chipping.) Buffy used to respect him, even when she hated him, because he was a strong and formidable opponent, a worthy adversary. He was a powerful vampire warrior who had killed two Slayers. Now he's "pathetic" to her. I used the word "pity" advisedly, precisely because it =does= connote lack of respect -- even has a component of contempt. I don't think she feels compassion for him. He's pitiable. (There is a reason why the show has drawn a comparison between the chipping and emasculation.) He first became pitiable and pathetic to her in the ep where he was mooning over Dru, but now, of course, he is much more so. Gayle ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #39 ****************************