From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V3 #33 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, February 26 2001 Volume 03 : Number 033 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: ANGEL suicide ["Karin Rabe" ] Re: ANGEL suicide ["Susan Kroupa" ] RE: ANGEL suicide [hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us] RE: ANGEL suicide ["Karin Rabe" ] Re: RE:ANGEL & Robotgirl ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: ANGEL suicide ["Berni Phillips" ] RE: ANGEL suicide ["Karin Rabe" ] RE: ANGEL suicide [Todd Huff ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:39:39 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide I'm wondering if my last post made it to the list, since =noone= has weighed in on the question I raised about ANGEL. Here it is again: >So what do you think, is it curtains for the policewoman as well as for >Joyce, both in the same week? Or will she live to make life hard for Angel >another day? I hope it's the latter, even though I don't like the character >all that much. But the load on Angel's conscience will be HUGE if she >doesn't. I'd =really= like to get other people's thoughts on this! - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:28:39 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: ANGEL suicide I'm hoping her suicide doesn't succeed because she's always been one of my favorite characters. Her relationship with Angel is complex and interesting, and she is a good, if flawed, character. Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Karin Rabe To: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:39 AM Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide > I'm wondering if my last post made it to the list, since =noone= has > weighed in on the question I raised about ANGEL. Here it is again: > > > >So what do you think, is it curtains for the policewoman as well as for > >Joyce, both in the same week? Or will she live to make life hard for Angel > >another day? I hope it's the latter, even though I don't like the > character > >all that much. But the load on Angel's conscience will be HUGE if she > >doesn't. > > I'd =really= like to get other people's thoughts on this! > > ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:48:50 -0500 From: hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, you wrote: > I'm wondering if my last post made it to the list, since =noone= has > weighed in on the question I raised about ANGEL. Here it is again: > > > >So what do you think, is it curtains for the policewoman as well as for > >Joyce, both in the same week? Or will she live to make life hard for Angel > >another day? I hope it's the latter, even though I don't like the > character > >all that much. But the load on Angel's conscience will be HUGE if she > >doesn't. > I've got it. She didn't actually take the pills, she just fell asleep on the floor. Oh and instead of Angel breaking the curse Darla is going to catch it (sort of like VD) and we'll have two angsty vampires on the loose. Next week's episode is going to be the most cheerful episode of Angel ever. with singing, dancing, and all manner of folderol. Or maybe not... On a more serious note, I could see it going either way. I think it would be incredibly cruel to Angel, but that seems to be the way this season is going. Angel's already been broken, now he gets to pick up the pieces and start healing (theoretically). Kate's death would make that even harder than it already is. I imagine that we're supposed to be drawing parallels between Kate and Angel at this point. Both had their missions, both failed and lost their support systems in the process (Kate - the police dept., Angel - Wes, Cordy, Gunn), both are attempting suicide (Kate's physically, Angel's emotionally? mentally?). And there's no one there to save either of them because they've pushed everyone else away. Someone mentioned either here or on another list, that Kate, as a policewoman, should know that drug overdoses are not a sure method of suicide, but that isn't the point. She didn't want to succeed in killing herself or she wouldn't have called Angel. As a young adult librarian, I see more than my fair share of books about suicide, both fiction and nonfiction (This is one of the hot topics for this age group, along with sexuality issues, drugs, and peer pressure.), and the thing that is repeated over and over is that suicidal people usually don't want to kill themselves, that what they're really doing is calling for help. So on the Kate lives side, we've got the fact that trying to kill yourself, doesn't always mean that you will end up dead and the parallel with Angel - they've both hit rock bottom now they both get to climb up again. And on the Kate dies side, we've got the AngelAngst factor and the broken parallel. What happens if Angel can pull himself out of it but Kate couldn't. It's too close for me to call. Hilary - -- Hilary Hertzoff hhertzof@panix.com Mamaroneck, NY hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us Miss Bettany had told them to read the classics and see how little slang was used there,and to try to model their own speech rather more on them than on that of cheap magazines filled with Americanese and language which might be suitable for boys, but was not allowable for girls. - Jo of the Chalet School ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:24:22 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide Well, looks like at least three of us would much prefer she =survive= her suicide attempt! A very thoughtful analysis, Hilary, and I agree it's "too close to call," which is why I couldn't resist posing the question. :) You draw interesting parallels between Kate's situation and Angel's, although I can't say I quite see Angel as having "lost" his support system of Wes, Cordy and Gunn in the same sense that Kate lost the police dept. Angel did choose to fire them, after all. You're certainly on target with both having become totally isolated and attempting suicide in some sens. But I'm not sure Angel's refusal to save Kate has much to do with her having previously pushed him away. It seemed to me his hanging up on her was meant to show us that he'd taken to a new (lower) level his response weeks ago to the Wolfram and Hart lawyers he was locking in with Darla and Dru, when one of them asked him to save =them= from certain death: "I just can't seem to care." I also suspect his attempted "suicide" was more genuine than Kate's, less a call for help. - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:28:25 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: RE:ANGEL & Robotgirl Spoiler for the upcoming epidsode... P O I L E R S P A C E According to a plot summary my daughter found for next week's ep, it looks as if you nailed this one! Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Karin Rabe To: > But I do have to ask, Meredith, what makes you think Angel > lost his soul again? Surely we don't consider his roll in the hay with > Darla, after all that had happened earlier in the episode, a "moment of true > happiness"? (And in the preview for next week, which I listened to twice > because initially it shocked me with a seeming suggestion that he had lost > his soul "again," the language at the beginning, and the accompanying > imagery, actually refer to his earlier experience with Buffy. Then the > question is posed, "Now that he's again tasted the flesh, what will be > unleashed?" > > Clearly he wakes up in the middle of the night with a start, suggesting > something is. Since arguably he had already been brought to a point where > he wasn't really on speaking terms with his soul any more =before= > succumbing to Darla's sexual allure, I anticipate that the effect of > "tasting the flesh" of the once again totally and demonstrably evil Darla > will be almost the =opposite= of what happened with Buffy. That is, it's > his moment of truly hitting rock bottom, a visit to the "home office" far > more real, for Angel, than the one on the elevator, and the impact therefore > offers the shock therapy he seems badly to need at this point, to help him > bounce back =out= of the abyss he's fallen into. IOW, perhaps we've now > seen in this reality a playing out of a cycle akin to the metaphorical one > he went through when Buffy sent him straight to hell, only to have him > eventually and inexplicably bounce back into this dimension, stripped and > purified by its torments. Interesting that a couple of weeks ago he tried > to subject Darla (and Dru, of course) to hellfire on earth, only to have > Darla be the ultimate instrument in this episode of the discovery earlier > given voice to by the dead lawyer ont the elevator: hell is where you are, > Angel. :) > ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:34:28 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: ANGEL suicide From: "Karin Rabe" To: > >So what do you think, is it curtains for the policewoman as well as for > >Joyce, both in the same week? Or will she live to make life hard for Angel > >another day? I hope it's the latter, even though I don't like the > character > >all that much. But the load on Angel's conscience will be HUGE if she > >doesn't. > > I'd =really= like to get other people's thoughts on this! I would be very surprised if Kate died. I don't like the timing of killing two characters (Joyce and Kate) off at the same time. I think Kate will pull through and, since she no longer has a job on the police force, will join Angel Investigations. She will certainly have connections that the others don't, and they can help her with the mystical stuff. It's as close to police work as she's likely to get now. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:22:57 -0500 From: "Karin Rabe" Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide Sue, Hmmmm.....I can hardly wait to find out! :) Berni, For some reason I can't quite picture Kate as a member of the Angel Investigations "team." (Not that it's easy at the moment even to picture Angel as part of the team again!) But of course I do hope you're right about them not killing off two characters in one week. - ---Karin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:47:56 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: RE: ANGEL suicide > For some reason I can't quite picture Kate as a > member of the Angel > Investigations "team." (Not that it's easy at the > moment even to picture > Angel as part of the team again!) But of course I > do hope you're right > about them not killing off two characters in one > week. > A neat idea, but I just can't see her on the team right now. Maybe next season. Frankly, more of my thoughts are about just what Cordelia is walking into at the end of the show. Did anybody recognize the type of demon that killed the client? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V3 #33 ****************************