From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #237 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, December 21 2000 Volume 02 : Number 237 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/etbest00 [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/etbest00 [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/etbest00 ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/etbest00 [Todd Huff ] Re: b/etbest00 [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/etbest00 [GHighPine@aol.com] b/Who's in the wrong, here [Dori ] Re: b/Who's in the wrong, here [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/etbest00 [Todd Huff ] Re: Angel/Wolfram & Hart [allenw ] Re: b/Who's in the wrong, here [meredith ] Re: Angel/Wolfram & Hart [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:41:10 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/etbest00 At 12:05 AM 12/20/00 -0500, Dori wrote: >>Just watched tonight's episodes. Holy cow! Nobody was dull tonight. > > Told ya. Riley was thudworthy in a sweet, goofy kind of way >before, but man. Dark'n'Tortured!Riley is just soooo much better. > >I was chewing my nails during the Buffy ep, and man, do I ever want >to bitchslap Buffy. Riley's a big Teutonic MORON, but Buffy is just >way too self-absorbed. I say, whap 'em all and let God >sort 'em out. Wow. I had completely the opposite reaction. Up until this episode, I had kind of liked NiceGuy!Riley, been fairly bored by SexToy!Riley, and been newly interested in FuckedUp!Riley. By the end of "Into the Woods", if he'd died a gruesome death I would have stood up and cheered. I found Riley's insistence on Buffy's coping with grief and pain in a way *he* found comfortable appallingly self-centered and immature, his attempts to coerce her physically and emotionally incredibly offensive (from his insistence on repeatedly *grabbing* her when she made it clear she didn't want to be touched to his profoundly sick attempts to get her to hit him -- whether that was an attempt at self-punishment or a conviction that you only commit assault and battery on the ones you love I don't even *want* to know), his attempts to blame her for his actions pathetic and infuriating, his ultimatums and passive-aggressive refusal to openly discuss the issues bothering him until everything blew up in his face extraordinarily manipulative and childish, and his projection of all his life's problems onto his relationship with his girlfriend staggeringly dumb. And the fact that the episode seemed ultimately to endorse his views -- from having Xander Ex Machina repeat them to having Buffy go chase the guy (in what was a profoundly predictable and thuddingly cliched ending) -- sickens me beyond my ability to express. By the end of it, I couldn't even care that Riley did have half a point. ANGEL, on the other hand, rocked. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:41:10 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/etbest00 At 12:05 AM 12/20/00 -0500, Dori wrote: >>Just watched tonight's episodes. Holy cow! Nobody was dull tonight. > > Told ya. Riley was thudworthy in a sweet, goofy kind of way >before, but man. Dark'n'Tortured!Riley is just soooo much better. > >I was chewing my nails during the Buffy ep, and man, do I ever want >to bitchslap Buffy. Riley's a big Teutonic MORON, but Buffy is just >way too self-absorbed. I say, whap 'em all and let God >sort 'em out. Wow. I had completely the opposite reaction. Up until this episode, I had kind of liked NiceGuy!Riley, been fairly bored by SexToy!Riley, and been newly interested in FuckedUp!Riley. By the end of "Into the Woods", if he'd died a gruesome death I would have stood up and cheered. I found Riley's insistence on Buffy's coping with grief and pain in a way *he* found comfortable appallingly self-centered and immature, his attempts to coerce her physically and emotionally incredibly offensive (from his insistence on repeatedly *grabbing* her when she made it clear she didn't want to be touched to his profoundly sick attempts to get her to hit him -- whether that was an attempt at self-punishment or a conviction that you only commit assault and battery on the ones you love I don't even *want* to know), his attempts to blame her for his actions pathetic and infuriating, his ultimatums and passive-aggressive refusal to openly discuss the issues bothering him until everything blew up in his face extraordinarily manipulative and childish, and his projection of all his life's problems onto his relationship with his girlfriend staggeringly dumb. And the fact that the episode seemed ultimately to endorse his views -- from having Xander Ex Machina repeat them to having Buffy go chase the guy (in what was a profoundly predictable and thuddingly cliched ending) -- sickens me beyond my ability to express. By the end of it, I couldn't even care that Riley did have half a point. ANGEL, on the other hand, rocked. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:38:18 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/etbest00 I thought both Riley and Buffy were self-absorbed and both tried to blame the other for the problems in the relationship. I agree the ending was cliched, not to mention they had too many lingering shots on Buffy's sad face throughout the show. Nonetheless, I found the ep riveting and I cheered Xander's newly found wisdom. I don't think it was deus ex machina--Xander's been quietly observing Buffy and Riley all along. And the scene with Spike and Riley was great, I thought. And yes, Angel was totally surprising. Cordelia seems to wear more make-up every episode--I wonder what's with that? Sue Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Micole Sudberg To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 1:41 AM Subject: Re: b/etbest00 > At 12:05 AM 12/20/00 -0500, Dori wrote: > >>Just watched tonight's episodes. Holy cow! Nobody was dull tonight. > > > > Told ya. Riley was thudworthy in a sweet, goofy kind of way > >before, but man. Dark'n'Tortured!Riley is just soooo much better. > > > >I was chewing my nails during the Buffy ep, and man, do I ever want > >to bitchslap Buffy. Riley's a big Teutonic MORON, but Buffy is just > >way too self-absorbed. I say, whap 'em all and let God > >sort 'em out. > > Wow. I had completely the opposite reaction. Up until this episode, I had > kind of liked NiceGuy!Riley, been fairly bored by SexToy!Riley, and been > newly interested in FuckedUp!Riley. By the end of "Into the Woods", if > he'd died a gruesome death I would have stood up and cheered. > > I found Riley's insistence on Buffy's coping with grief and pain in a way > *he* found comfortable appallingly self-centered and immature, his attempts > to coerce her physically and emotionally incredibly offensive (from his > insistence on repeatedly *grabbing* her when she made it clear she didn't > want to be touched to his profoundly sick attempts to get her to hit him -- > whether that was an attempt at self-punishment or a conviction that you > only commit assault and battery on the ones you love I don't even *want* to > know), his attempts to blame her for his actions pathetic and infuriating, > his ultimatums and passive-aggressive refusal to openly discuss the issues > bothering him until everything blew up in his face extraordinarily > manipulative and childish, and his projection of all his life's problems > onto his relationship with his girlfriend staggeringly dumb. And the fact > that the episode seemed ultimately to endorse his views -- from having > Xander Ex Machina repeat them to having Buffy go chase the guy (in what was > a profoundly predictable and thuddingly cliched ending) -- sickens me > beyond my ability to express. By the end of it, I couldn't even care that > Riley did have half a point. > > ANGEL, on the other hand, rocked. > > --m. > > -- > > "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a > bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:45:04 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/etbest00 Would somebody mind posting (or pointing me to) a brief synopsis of Buffy and Angel this week? Had a small blackout yesterday that reset my vcr while I was at work. :( Thanks Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:00 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/etbest00 In a message dated 12/20/00 7:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, thuff_007@yahoo.com writes: << Would somebody mind posting (or pointing me to) a brief synopsis of Buffy and Angel this week? Had a small blackout yesterday that reset my vcr while I was at work. :( >> Major turning points in each ep. Riley leaves because he feels Buffy doesn't need him. Drusilla and Darla wipe out Wolfram and Hart with Angel's blessing (though I'll bet that Lindsay ends up spared) and, after Cordy/Wesley/ Gunn express concern that Angel is going to the dark side, he fires them all. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:43:46 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/etbest00 In a message dated 12/20/00 7:32:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, susank@fiber.net writes: << I thought both Riley and Buffy were self-absorbed and both tried to blame the other for the problems in the relationship. >> I agree with Susan. It does testify that their relationship was not ultimately very strong, though, IMO. So can someone tell me why Riley didn't really kill Spike? What possible reason would be have for only =pretending= to kill him and not actually doing it? For some reason he must want Spike alive. But what? And why would he be going around with a fake plastic-wood spike anyway? The only reason for that that I can possibly think of is that it was used in fake "staking games" with the vampires. Which makes his trips to the vampires seem even sicker, IMO. But why not bring that out explicitly? Can anyone come up with an alternative explanartion for the fake stake, and a reason why Riley would not kill Spike? Re Angel, it suddenly occurs to me that he didn't just leave Drusilla and Darla alone, he locked them in a bomb shelter. It had seemed to be in order to keep the victims from escaping, but it also might be hard for D&D to get out. Now will we never learn what W&H's plans for Angel had been? Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:35:34 -0500 From: Dori Subject: b/Who's in the wrong, here Micole said: >his attempts to blame her for his actions [are] pathetic and infuriating, Right from the episode: > BUFFY: Nothing you can say right now is going to make it better. > > RILEY: I realize that. I don't expect... > > > > BUFFY: So this is my fault? Gee, Buffy's so mysterious - I think I'll > go almost die. I think I'll let some other woman... > > RILEY: This isn't your fault. It's mine. > > > > BUFFY: You expect me to get over it now or you're gone! > > RILEY: I don't. > > > > BUFFY: No. I've heard enough. I'm not taking the blame for all of this- > > RILEY: I'm not asking you to-- Er, I'm not seeing lots of Blame Buffy, here. What I'm seeing is Buffy not listening and making interpretations based on what she =thinks= she hears. I can understand why Buffy, hurt and angry, would be incapable of actually =listening to what he's saying=, and I can understand why telling her that he wasn't getting what he needed from her would sound like he was blaming her. It's hard to hear that the thing you thought you were doing perfectly is a failure, and I can't imagine I'd react any way but badly to the same kind of news at first. But, well... She =has= treated him badly. She =has= held back, she =has= kept pushing him away, she =has= made him feel like he's not good enough for her. She has repeatedly and pointedly not said she loved him, even when he said it to her, and she expects him to get that she loves him by osmosis? When she =knows= that he's afraid she won't want him now that he's normal? Which doesn't excuse his keeping company with the vamp whores, but he didn't get to the edge of that cliff by himself, even if it was his (extremely STUPID!) decision to step over it. He's not making up the fact that she doesn't love him as deeply as he loves her, or that it's become a problem, and this is what pisses me off--that she's not willing to accept her share of the blame for the implosion of the relationship. Because Riley didn't fuck things up right by himself. Yeah, telling her that she wasn't giving him what he needed was manipulative. But it wasn't =unfairly= manipulative. She wasn't seeing the part where this situation has become untenable and is literally killing him and he needs for her to either be willing to fix it or cut him loose. Can you pull me up over this cliff? Because if you can't, I'm going to let go before it kills us both. That's a legitimate request, even though it was badly timed and =very= badly phrased. She totally didn't get that what he was asking for was not an immediate decision, but the =chance= that they could fix things. Not immediate forgiveness--the chance to earn forgiveness. Hope. A reason to stay. Or a clean break. They =both= screwed up, and screwed up big--he should have told her what was bothering him way before now, and she was too afraid of scary, messy love to let herself feel it and so treated him like Rebound Guy. She says she gave him all she had, but that's a lie. She gave him all she was comfortable with giving, and made herself believe it was everything, and she wouldn't face it when he called her on it. He may have handled the confrontation badly, but so did she when she refused to listen to him. Because, you know, what else does, "I've heard enough," mean? > his ultimatums and passive-aggressive refusal to openly discuss the > issues bothering him until everything blew up in his face [was] > extraordinarily manipulative and childish Well, not talking to her about what was bothering him was a mistake of galactic proportions, but to be fair, she was going through all that torment about her mother, and Riley would have felt like a heel if he'd said anything while she was that worried about Joyce. Too, there was the time pressure he was under. If the Black Ops clock hadn't been ticking, I doubt there would have been an ultimatum. He didn't have the luxury of waiting for her to be ready to deal, because the Black Ops guys needed him =now=. And being needed is what Riley needs most, even more than Buffy's love. - -- Dori cleindori@rica.net - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ...perhaps love belonged to Chaos all along. Te - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:30:35 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/Who's in the wrong, here At 05:35 PM 12/20/00 -0500, Dori wrote: >Micole said: >>his attempts to blame her for his actions [are] pathetic and infuriating, > >Right from the episode: >> BUFFY: Nothing you can say right now is going to make it better. >> >> RILEY: I realize that. I don't expect... >> >> >> >> BUFFY: So this is my fault? Gee, Buffy's so mysterious - I think I'll >> go almost die. I think I'll let some other woman... >> >> RILEY: This isn't your fault. It's mine. >> >> >> >> BUFFY: You expect me to get over it now or you're gone! >> >> RILEY: I don't. >> >> >> >> BUFFY: No. I've heard enough. I'm not taking the blame for all of this- >> >> RILEY: I'm not asking you to-- > >Er, I'm not seeing lots of Blame Buffy, here. What I'm seeing is >Buffy not listening and making interpretations based on what she >=thinks= she hears. Whereas what I'm seeing is a combination of Riley automatically denying the guilt trip he is in fact trying to pull, plus yes, Buffy not listening after warning Riley that she was not in fact prepared to listen to him. And as you say below, I think it's pretty understandable why Buffy is not prepared to listen to him at that point. >I can understand why Buffy, hurt and angry, would be incapable of >actually =listening to what he's saying=, and I can understand why >telling her that he wasn't getting what he needed from her would >sound like he was blaming her. It's hard to hear that the thing you >thought you were doing perfectly is a failure, and I can't imagine >I'd react any way but badly to the same kind of news at first. But, >well... > >She =has= treated him badly. She =has= held back, she =has= kept >pushing him away, she =has= made him feel like he's not good enough >for her. She has repeatedly and pointedly not said she loved him, >even when he said it to her, and she expects him to get that she >loves him by osmosis? When she =knows= that he's afraid she won't >want him now that he's normal? Which doesn't excuse his keeping >company with the vamp whores, but he didn't get to the edge of that >cliff by himself, even if it was his (extremely STUPID!) decision to >step over it. He's not making up the fact that she doesn't love him >as deeply as he loves her, or that it's become a problem, and this is >what pisses me off--that she's not willing to accept her share of the >blame for the implosion of the relationship. Because Riley didn't >fuck things up right by himself. Sure. As I said -- I think Riley had half a point. And one of the reasons I was so sickened by the end of the episode is that I *do* think Riley was the rebound guy, and that by rights Buffy should have let him go. (And if they'd ended the episode with that, I would have felt a good deal sorrier for both of them than I can currently manage.) To do Buffy justice, on the few times he has actually verbalized his fears to her, notably in "Out of My Mind", she has responded. Yes, she should have been paying more attention to the unstated clues at other times -- but he should also have stated them more. And it may have all been in front of Xander's face, but he actually started to notice it because Riley outright described the problem to him long before he ever confronted Buffy with it. I also don't entirely agree with all of Riley's claims that Buffy hasn't trusted him or confided in him. There are times when she hasn't done this - -- there's the whole Dawn affair -- but he is twisting Buffy's reactions over Joyce in ways I find really objectionable. I found the look on his face when Buffy says, "Oh, I cried," terribly sad, but it simultaneously made me want to slap him. The thing is, some people react to emotional crises by reaching out for support. Some people react by pulling in and making sure they can get everything they need to do done. Insisting that someone re-make their coping mechanisms so you can feel better about yourself is pretty self-absorbed. Riley claims that he isn't thrown off by Buffy's strength, but I don't buy it. Beneath a liberal surface, I think he's got very conventional notions of male and female roles in a relationship, and he's not properly conscious of how this affects his interpretations of things. >Yeah, telling her that she wasn't giving him what he needed was >manipulative. But it wasn't =unfairly= manipulative. She wasn't >seeing the part where this situation has become untenable and is >literally killing him and he needs for her to either be willing to >fix it or cut him loose. Can you pull me up over this cliff? >Because if you can't, I'm going to let go before it kills us both. >That's a legitimate request, even though it was badly timed and >=very= badly phrased. She totally didn't get that what he was asking >for was not an immediate decision, but the =chance= that they could >fix things. Not immediate forgiveness--the chance to earn >forgiveness. Hope. A reason to stay. Or a clean break. > >They =both= screwed up, and screwed up big--he should have told her >what was bothering him way before now, and she was too afraid of >scary, messy love to let herself feel it and so treated him like >Rebound Guy. She says she gave him all she had, but that's a lie. >She gave him all she was comfortable with giving, and made herself >believe it was everything, and she wouldn't face it when he called >her on it. He may have handled the confrontation badly, but so did >she when she refused to listen to him. Because, you know, what else >does, "I've heard enough," mean? Er, it means "I saw you screwing a prostitute less than 24 hours ago and if you want to have a rational discussion about this I'm going to need more time to calm down"? Which is what she tried to start off with before Riley began trying to turn the argument into a physical confrontation. >> his ultimatums and passive-aggressive refusal to openly discuss the >> issues bothering him until everything blew up in his face [was] >> extraordinarily manipulative and childish > >Well, not talking to her about what was bothering him was a mistake >of galactic proportions, but to be fair, she was going through all >that torment about her mother, and Riley would have felt like a heel >if he'd said anything while she was that worried about Joyce. Too, >there was the time pressure he was under. If the Black Ops clock >hadn't been ticking, I doubt there would have been an ultimatum. He >didn't have the luxury of waiting for her to be ready to deal, >because the Black Ops guys needed him =now=. And being needed is >what Riley needs most, even more than Buffy's love. The last sentence is the only part I can wholeheartedly agree with. Riley lost his sense of identity and self-worth when he left the Initiative and he's spent this entire season trying to replace his God and Country with Girlfriend. That seems to me an unconscionable burden to place on anyone - -- no wonder Buffy couldn't live up to it. Who could? I don't buy the Black Ops ticking clock. If Riley hadn't wanted to set up an ultimatum, he could have looked for purpose elsewhere, he could have tried hooking up with Black Ops after their return, he could have joined the regular military -- I do think, in some sense, his major problem was that he didn't have a *job*. Which is why if Buffy had gotten there earlier and Riley had stayed in Sunnydale, I don't have the faintest confidence his behavior would have improved -- he'd be back in the place he's been all season, which is looking for his sense of worth from how other people feel about him rather than what he's doing in the world. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/etbest00 Wow! Thanks, Gayle. > > Major turning points in each ep. Riley leaves > because he feels Buffy > doesn't need him. Drusilla and Darla wipe out > Wolfram and Hart with Angel's > blessing (though I'll bet that Lindsay ends up > spared) and, after > Cordy/Wesley/ Gunn express concern that Angel is > going to the dark side, he > fires them all. > > Gayle Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:21:11 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: Angel/Wolfram & Hart ANGEL SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gayle said: > Re Angel, it suddenly occurs to me that he didn't just leave Drusilla >and >Darla alone, he locked them in a bomb shelter. It had seemed to be in >order >to keep the victims from escaping, but it also might be hard for D&D to >get out. > Now will we never learn what W&H's plans for Angel have been? > Gayle Gayle, Personally, I think that this *is* the W&H plan for Angel; W&H (as individuals or as a legal entity) just neglected to give Holland/Special Projects all the pertinent details. And I think that Angel has figured this out, which is why he's trying to play along enough to get someone in charge to reveal themselves (while getting his friends out of the line of fire). Of course, "playing along" still means a rather Angelus-like disregard for life, so the plan is still working. And I doubt that the bomb shelter foor will slow down Darla and Drusilla much, judging from the fact that Spike & Co. were able to break out of the stronger-looking door of the vampire-wanna-be club back in Sunnydale Buffy's second season. Of course, we could have the next Angel episode be Dar and Dru playing "Ten Little Indians" with the contents of the "people-cellar", with Lindsey and Lilah each manuevering to be the last one standing... -Allen W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:08:15 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/Who's in the wrong, here Hi! I agree with Dori's take on the Buffy/Riley situation. During the entire confrontation scene, I was feeling sorrier for Riley than I'd have thought possible. Buffy never once told him that she loved him -- the only time the word "love" was mentioned in connection with him was when she was trying to piss Angel off, and Riley wasn't even there at the time. Buffy has been getting more and more self-absorbed and self-righteous all season. I was *so* glad Riley's copter took off before she got there -- she didn't deserve a chance to make up with him. By being left behind to stew in her own juices, she's getting exactly what she did deserve. I don't think Riley was completely blame-free in all of this, but I think of the two of them, Buffy was the one who should have shouldered more of the blame. I have to say that I *loved* the scene with Xander and Anya at the end. How thweet. :) +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:12:22 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: Angel/Wolfram & Hart Hi! Re Angel (which I missed the second half of thanks to a phone call, but Don kindly filled me in): I don't believe all of W&H are dead. My personal theory is at least one of them (Lindsey) will survive, possibly even as a vampire. Do we know when the next new episodes are going to be? +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #237 *****************************