From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #224 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, November 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 224 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/this week's ANGEL [hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us] Re: b/this week's ANGEL ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL [allenw ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL [allenw ] Fwd: Re: b/this week's ANGEL [hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us] Re: b/this week's ANGEL ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL ["marta grabien" ] Re: b/this week's ANGEL [Hilary Hertzoff ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:23:04 -0500 From: hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, you wrote: > Hi! > > So we've gone from a giant rubber snake to a giant oozing cockroach from > outer space. Somehow I don't think that's much of an improvement. > A cockroach with a human face no less. At least Buffy told her mother the truth when she asked. > Of course, being the abject idiot I am, I switched over to _Dark Angel_ at > 9, and apparently (if Ain't It Cool News is to be believed, which it > usually is in my case) I missed the best _Angel_ episode ever. If someone > wouldn't mind filling me in? > > Thanks ... I wasn't impressed, but your mileage may vary... Spoilers below The short version; Darla is dying of the thing that nearly killed her the first time around and is trying to get a vampire to bite her when Angel finds her. Angel confirms this with Lindsay and accuses him of being in love with Darla. Angel then brings Darla to the kareoke bar where she sings and he finds out that he has to go to jump into an empty swimming pool to save her. At the bottom he is faced with Jeeves who sets him three tasks to save Darla's life. Then he has to prove that he is willing to sacrifice his own life to save Darla. Once he does all of this (coming out of it with a mild holy water burn), he is told that since Darla has already been given a second chance at life by Wolfram and Hart, Jeeves can't help her. He and Darla return to her hotel room, where she makes a lovely speech about understanding what he's going through and accepting her fate at which point Lindsay walks in with some goons from Wolfram and Hart who restrain both of them and in walks Drusilla who proceeds to make Darla back into a vampire. Thus proving that the whole episode is an exercise in futility. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 07:53:19 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL S P O I L E R * * * * * I liked the episode better than you did, but I was boggled at the end when the men from Wolfram & Hart--who had been trying to kill Angel for ages--had him restrained but do nothing. I think their only reason was the mandate Never Kill the Hero of a Series. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:23 AM Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL > On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, you wrote: > > Hi! > > > > So we've gone from a giant rubber snake to a giant oozing cockroach from > > outer space. Somehow I don't think that's much of an improvement. > > > A cockroach with a human face no less. > > At least Buffy told her mother the truth when she asked. > > > Of course, being the abject idiot I am, I switched over to _Dark Angel_ at > > 9, and apparently (if Ain't It Cool News is to be believed, which it > > usually is in my case) I missed the best _Angel_ episode ever. If someone > > wouldn't mind filling me in? > > > > Thanks ... > > I wasn't impressed, but your mileage may vary... > > Spoilers below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The short version; > Darla is dying of the thing that nearly killed her the first time around and > is trying to get a vampire to bite her when Angel finds her. Angel > confirms this with Lindsay and accuses him of being in love with Darla. > Angel then brings Darla to the kareoke bar where she sings and he finds out > that he has to go to jump into an empty swimming pool to save her. At the > bottom he is faced with Jeeves who sets him three tasks to save Darla's > life. Then he has to prove that he is willing to sacrifice his own life to > save Darla. Once he does all of this (coming out of it with a mild holy water > burn), he is told that since Darla has already been given a second chance at > life by Wolfram and Hart, Jeeves can't help her. He and Darla return to her > hotel room, where she makes a lovely speech about understanding what he's going > through and accepting her fate at which point Lindsay walks in with some goons > from Wolfram and Hart who restrain both of them and in walks Drusilla who > proceeds to make Darla back into a vampire. Thus proving that the whole > episode is an exercise in futility. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:10:21 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL At 07:53 AM 11/29/00 -0800, Susan Kroupa wrote: >S >P >O >I >L >E >R >* >* >* >* >* > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:23 AM >Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL > > >> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, you wrote: >> > Hi! >> > >> > So we've gone from a giant rubber snake to a giant oozing cockroach from >> > outer space. Somehow I don't think that's much of an improvement. >> > >> A cockroach with a human face no less. >> >> At least Buffy told her mother the truth when she asked. >> >> > Of course, being the abject idiot I am, I switched over to _Dark Angel_ >at >> > 9, and apparently (if Ain't It Cool News is to be believed, which it >> > usually is in my case) I missed the best _Angel_ episode ever. If >someone >> > wouldn't mind filling me in? >> > >> > Thanks ... >> >> I wasn't impressed, but your mileage may vary... >> >> Spoilers below >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The short version; >> Darla is dying of the thing that nearly killed her the first time around >and >> is trying to get a vampire to bite her when Angel finds her. Angel >> confirms this with Lindsay and accuses him of being in love with Darla. >> Angel then brings Darla to the kareoke bar where she sings and he finds >out >> that he has to go to jump into an empty swimming pool to save her. At the >> bottom he is faced with Jeeves who sets him three tasks to save Darla's >> life. Then he has to prove that he is willing to sacrifice his own life >to >> save Darla. Once he does all of this (coming out of it with a mild holy >water >> burn), he is told that since Darla has already been given a second chance >at >> life by Wolfram and Hart, Jeeves can't help her. He and Darla return to >her >> hotel room, where she makes a lovely speech about understanding what he's >going >> through and accepting her fate at which point Lindsay walks in with some >goons >> from Wolfram and Hart who restrain both of them and in walks Drusilla who >> proceeds to make Darla back into a vampire. Thus proving that the whole >> episode is an exercise in futility. I *liked* that. The whole episode up until that point was immensely frustrating to me because Angel was officiously and rather paternalistically trying to save Darla from herself, which grated on me for a bunch of different reasons: (a) the whole hero saving the damsel in distress has gotten really old; (b) I don't believe saving someone who doesn't want to be saved actually works, and the kindest explanation I can think of for Angel's insistence that it will is that the show is deliberately working on displaying his blind spot, and that eventually this megalomaniac delusion will come back to bite him, hard. Lovely that Darla at the moment had accepted death -- but it wasn't staring her in the face, and she hadn't made any such decision *during* the trial when it was a choice of her life or Angel's. So I found it striking and horrible and perfectly convincing that when Drusilla came back, Darla ultimately chose to drink her blood, and survive. And I loved how Drusilla spent most of that scene staring at Angel -- without a word said, she established *her* motivation for her actions. Personally, I was kind of lukewarm about the episode until Lindsey broke down the door, surprised and excited when the Initiative-like guys came through the door, and absolutely blissful from Drusilla's entrance to the end of the scene. This is probably the most excited I've been about ANGEL all season. >I liked the episode better than you did, but I was boggled at the end when >the men from Wolfram & Hart--who had been trying to kill Angel for ages--had >him restrained but do nothing. I think their only reason was the mandate >Never Kill the Hero of a Series. Actually, two plausible motivations for this occur to me: (1) Wolfram & Hart waver back and forth between wanting to kill Angel and wanting to corrupt him. Leland's last words on the subject seem to indicate they're focused on corruption just now, and are hoping the re-vamping of Darla would drive him over the edge. (2) I'm not convinced that Drusilla was an official Wolfram & Hart move. Lindsey's made it clear he'll do anything to save Darla and thinks vamping is the way to go; he's also made it clear that he doesn't hold any major personal animus against Angel at this point (which is maybe a little weird, but I think makes the most sense if you think of Angel as simply not registering as important on his emotional radar at this point). I can quite see Lindsey seeking out Drusilla and pulling together the vampire SWAT team as a personal project, off the books. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:10:21 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL At 07:53 AM 11/29/00 -0800, Susan Kroupa wrote: >S >P >O >I >L >E >R >* >* >* >* >* > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:23 AM >Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL > > >> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, you wrote: >> > Hi! >> > >> > So we've gone from a giant rubber snake to a giant oozing cockroach from >> > outer space. Somehow I don't think that's much of an improvement. >> > >> A cockroach with a human face no less. >> >> At least Buffy told her mother the truth when she asked. >> >> > Of course, being the abject idiot I am, I switched over to _Dark Angel_ >at >> > 9, and apparently (if Ain't It Cool News is to be believed, which it >> > usually is in my case) I missed the best _Angel_ episode ever. If >someone >> > wouldn't mind filling me in? >> > >> > Thanks ... >> >> I wasn't impressed, but your mileage may vary... >> >> Spoilers below >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The short version; >> Darla is dying of the thing that nearly killed her the first time around >and >> is trying to get a vampire to bite her when Angel finds her. Angel >> confirms this with Lindsay and accuses him of being in love with Darla. >> Angel then brings Darla to the kareoke bar where she sings and he finds >out >> that he has to go to jump into an empty swimming pool to save her. At the >> bottom he is faced with Jeeves who sets him three tasks to save Darla's >> life. Then he has to prove that he is willing to sacrifice his own life >to >> save Darla. Once he does all of this (coming out of it with a mild holy >water >> burn), he is told that since Darla has already been given a second chance >at >> life by Wolfram and Hart, Jeeves can't help her. He and Darla return to >her >> hotel room, where she makes a lovely speech about understanding what he's >going >> through and accepting her fate at which point Lindsay walks in with some >goons >> from Wolfram and Hart who restrain both of them and in walks Drusilla who >> proceeds to make Darla back into a vampire. Thus proving that the whole >> episode is an exercise in futility. I *liked* that. The whole episode up until that point was immensely frustrating to me because Angel was officiously and rather paternalistically trying to save Darla from herself, which grated on me for a bunch of different reasons: (a) the whole hero saving the damsel in distress has gotten really old; (b) I don't believe saving someone who doesn't want to be saved actually works, and the kindest explanation I can think of for Angel's insistence that it will is that the show is deliberately working on displaying his blind spot, and that eventually this megalomaniac delusion will come back to bite him, hard. Lovely that Darla at the moment had accepted death -- but it wasn't staring her in the face, and she hadn't made any such decision *during* the trial when it was a choice of her life or Angel's. So I found it striking and horrible and perfectly convincing that when Drusilla came back, Darla ultimately chose to drink her blood, and survive. And I loved how Drusilla spent most of that scene staring at Angel -- without a word said, she established *her* motivation for her actions. Personally, I was kind of lukewarm about the episode until Lindsey broke down the door, surprised and excited when the Initiative-like guys came through the door, and absolutely blissful from Drusilla's entrance to the end of the scene. This is probably the most excited I've been about ANGEL all season. >I liked the episode better than you did, but I was boggled at the end when >the men from Wolfram & Hart--who had been trying to kill Angel for ages--had >him restrained but do nothing. I think their only reason was the mandate >Never Kill the Hero of a Series. Actually, two plausible motivations for this occur to me: (1) Wolfram & Hart waver back and forth between wanting to kill Angel and wanting to corrupt him. Leland's last words on the subject seem to indicate they're focused on corruption just now, and are hoping the re-vamping of Darla would drive him over the edge. (2) I'm not convinced that Drusilla was an official Wolfram & Hart move. Lindsey's made it clear he'll do anything to save Darla and thinks vamping is the way to go; he's also made it clear that he doesn't hold any major personal animus against Angel at this point (which is maybe a little weird, but I think makes the most sense if you think of Angel as simply not registering as important on his emotional radar at this point). I can quite see Lindsey seeking out Drusilla and pulling together the vampire SWAT team as a personal project, off the books. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:06:36 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Susan Kroupa wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > * > * > * > * > * > > > > > > I liked the episode better than you did, but I was boggled at the end when > the men from Wolfram & Hart--who had been trying to kill Angel for ages--had > him restrained but do nothing. I think their only reason was the mandate > Never Kill the Hero of a Series. > I haven't seen W&H's goal as killing Angel for quite some time, if ever. They want to *use* him, for unspecified purposes. This presumably (but not necessarily) involves recruiting him to their side. And in reference to an earlier post: I didn't see the first 55 minutes of the episode as at all pointless. Whatever the Darla Master Plan is, it required Angel to "save" Darla, just like the W&H boss said two weeks ago. And he did, twice: physically and spiritually. The fact that both "victories" were undone within minutes doesn't negate the changes and insight that both Angel and Darla gained from the process. My question is: Okay, what *is* the Darla Master Plan? W&H have carefully manuevered Darla and Angel to this exact situation since the season 1 ending. Is the idea to put Angel through the maximum possibly mental anguish and "break" him? Or will W&H offer to curse the soul back into Darla-vamp in exchange for Angel's cooperation? Or will Darla-vamp be a better, stronger vampire from having worked through her human issues? Or is Drusilla one of the "Senior Partners" and this has all been her revenge on Angel? Or did Lindsey bring in Drusilla on his own initiative (if you'll pardon the expression)? - -Allen W. P.S. I've been expecting Drusilla to show up in L.A. and re-vamp Darla ever since the "Grandmother/Mummy" dialogue in the flashback 2 weeks ago. Didn't expect it so soon, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:54:00 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, allenw wrote: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Susan Kroupa wrote: > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked the episode better than you did, but I was boggled at the end when > > the men from Wolfram & Hart--who had been trying to kill Angel for ages--had > > him restrained but do nothing. I think their only reason was the mandate > > Never Kill the Hero of a Series. > > > I haven't seen W&H's goal as killing Angel for quite some time, if > ever. They want to *use* him, for unspecified purposes. This presumably > (but not necessarily) involves recruiting him to their side. > And in reference to an earlier post: I didn't see the first 55 minutes > of the episode as at all pointless. Whatever the Darla Master Plan is, it > required Angel to "save" Darla, just like the W&H boss said two weeks > ago. And he did, twice: physically and spiritually. The fact that both > "victories" were undone within minutes doesn't negate the changes and > insight that both Angel and Darla gained from the process. Oops! Forgot one thing: The Jeeves-under-the-swimming-pool bit reminded me a *lot* of B5's "Comes the Inquisitor", right down to the willing-to-give-up-your-life-means-you-both-live cliche. If it had actually cured Darla's ailment, I'd have been disappointed; as it was, it seemed like a clever take on a familiar trope. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:19:24 -0500 From: hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us Subject: Fwd: Re: b/this week's ANGEL On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, you wrote: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, allenw wrote: > > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Susan Kroupa wrote: > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen W&H's goal as killing Angel for quite some time, if > > ever. They want to *use* him, for unspecified purposes. This presumably > > (but not necessarily) involves recruiting him to their side. > > And in reference to an earlier post: I didn't see the first 55 minutes > > of the episode as at all pointless. Whatever the Darla Master Plan is, it > > required Angel to "save" Darla, just like the W&H boss said two weeks > > ago. And he did, twice: physically and spiritually. The fact that both > > "victories" were undone within minutes doesn't negate the changes and > > insight that both Angel and Darla gained from the process. > I think it was the overdose of angst that got to me. Gratuitous character torture. Also, my description of the episode was probably more negative than I intended. There were some bits I did like, it just felt way too predictable for my tastes. Of course Darla was going to become a vampire again, of course Angel would get through all of the tests and sacrifice his life for hers and of course they would consult the oracle and so on. I expect better from Joss. > Oops! Forgot one thing: The Jeeves-under-the-swimming-pool bit > reminded me a *lot* of B5's "Comes the Inquisitor", right down to the > willing-to-give-up-your-life-means-you-both-live cliche. If it had > actually cured Darla's ailment, I'd have been disappointed; as it was, it > seemed like a clever take on a familiar trope. It's a bit late to be mentioning this, but they showed this episode on the SciFi channel today. I missed the first half or I would have said something sooner. I'm just now watching B5 for the first time and am enjoying it. Hilary - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:27:00 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL - ----- Original Message ----- From: Micole Sudberg To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL > >S > >P > >O > >I > >L > >E > >R > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) I'm not convinced that Drusilla was an official Wolfram & Hart move. > Lindsey's made it clear he'll do anything to save Darla and thinks vamping > is the way to go; he's also made it clear that he doesn't hold any major > personal animus against Angel at this point (which is maybe a little weird, > but I think makes the most sense if you think of Angel as simply not > registering as important on his emotional radar at this point). I can > quite see Lindsey seeking out Drusilla and pulling together the vampire > SWAT team as a personal project, off the books. > > --m. I think the second one is probably right--that Lindsey was doing this on his own. But, of course, I feel Lindsey is an unwitting pawn of the Wolfram & Hart's masterplan. I have trouble finding Darla worth Angel's efforts. I wish they'd bring Faith back. Darla, with her straight haircut, mimics Buffy's appearance, and a few times the way she spoke sounded like Buffy. Don't know if that's intentional or if the scriptwriters were lax. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:45:42 -0800 From: "marta grabien" Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL > Of course, being the abject idiot I am, I switched over to _Dark Angel_ at > 9, and apparently (if Ain't It Cool News is to be believed, which it > usually is in my case) I missed the best _Angel_ episode ever. If someone > wouldn't mind filling me in? Bare chested Angel, with chains..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:48:30 -0500 From: Hilary Hertzoff Subject: Re: b/this week's ANGEL On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, you wrote: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, allenw wrote: > > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Susan Kroupa wrote: > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen W&H's goal as killing Angel for quite some time, if > > ever. They want to *use* him, for unspecified purposes. This presumably > > (but not necessarily) involves recruiting him to their side. > > And in reference to an earlier post: I didn't see the first 55 minutes > > of the episode as at all pointless. Whatever the Darla Master Plan is, it > > required Angel to "save" Darla, just like the W&H boss said two weeks > > ago. And he did, twice: physically and spiritually. The fact that both > > "victories" were undone within minutes doesn't negate the changes and > > insight that both Angel and Darla gained from the process. > I think it was the overdose of angst that got to me. Gratuitous character torture. Also, my description of the episode was probably more negative than I intended. There were some bits I did like, it just felt way too predictable for my tastes. Of course Darla was going to become a vampire again, of course Angel would get through all of the tests and sacrifice his life for hers and of course they would consult the oracle and so on. I expect better from Joss. > Oops! Forgot one thing: The Jeeves-under-the-swimming-pool bit > reminded me a *lot* of B5's "Comes the Inquisitor", right down to the > willing-to-give-up-your-life-means-you-both-live cliche. If it had > actually cured Darla's ailment, I'd have been disappointed; as it was, it > seemed like a clever take on a familiar trope. It's a bit late to be mentioning this, but they showed this episode on the SciFi channel today. I missed the first half or I would have said something sooner. I'm just now watching B5 for the first time and am enjoying it. Hilary ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #224 *****************************