From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #220 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Sunday, November 26 2000 Volume 02 : Number 220 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/glorysnake [Micole Sudberg ] Re: b/glorysnake [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: stillpt-digest V2 #219 [Kathleen Woodbury ] Re: b/glorysnake ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/glorysnake ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/glorysnake [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/glorysnake [Robert Stacy ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:11:32 -0500 From: Micole Sudberg Subject: Re: b/glorysnake At 01:15 AM 11/25/00 EST, GHighPine@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/24/00 6:21:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, >hhertzof@wls.lib.ny.us writes: > ><< Doesn't the retroactive presence of Dawn in Buffy's life > > change =all= of Buffy's relationships? Wouldn't it have been much more > > difficult for Buffy to lead her clandestine life the first two seasons > > with a (then-10-year-old) sister in the house, too? >> > > That was certainly my thought when Dawn talked about how Buffy acted when >Angel was her boyfriend, "my boyfriend's a vampire, boo-hoo," or whatever. >That suggests that family knew about Angel at that time (even pre-change), >which suggests that a =lot= of things must have been different. They could have just known about it during the on-again, off-again period of the third season. Although it's also plausible that Dawn could have known about things that Joyce didn't; siblings frequently tell each other things they don't tell parents. I've quite liked how they've slipped in subtle references to the different history so far. - --m. - -- "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:11:57 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/glorysnake In a message dated 11/25/00 8:18:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, micole@speakeasy.org writes: << They could have just known about it during the on-again, off-again period of the third season. >> But I don't think that Buffy referred to him as her "boyfriend" then, did she? Still, Dawn could have used that word on her own. << Although it's also plausible that Dawn could have known about things that Joyce didn't; siblings frequently tell each other things they don't tell parents. >> True about siblings generally, but Dawn has a big mouth, and Buffy doesn't seem inclined to confide in her generally. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:32:33 -0700 From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: stillpt-digest V2 #219 At 04:45 AM 11/25/00 -0500, Gayle wrote: > Point of mundane Joyce illness seems to be about Buffy's helplessness >before this kind of crisis. The mundane explanation about Tara was a >letdown; this mundane explanation is not. The main reason for the difference >is that Tara's seems to have been a plot dead-end, a setup that led nowhere, >whereas this is a potent setup idemonstrating Buffy's impotence before a >mundane crisis. (And part of the difference is that Tara's revelation was >simply implausible, IMO.) Point of Joss's record: remember how he likes to lead us astray? There may be more to the "mundane explanation" of Tara than we know--Joss could still surprise us there. Question: why did Giles talk about that sphere (as protection against "That which can't be named" or whatever it was) when they were wondering about Glory, and yet not realize that it may be just what Buffy needs to protect Dawn? (Is he being particularly stupid for a reason?) Observation: Glory has a deadline (remember her reference to the ticking of the clock)? Could that be the weakness that helps them defeat her? Prediction (brace yourselves, I don't do this often): The sphere will be used to defeat Glory, but it will have to be used by the Key (Dawn). Therefore, Dawn will have to realize her own powers to some extent, at least. Phaedre/Kathleen workshop@burgoyne.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:12:46 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/glorysnake From: > That was certainly my thought when Dawn talked about how Buffy acted when > Angel was her boyfriend, "my boyfriend's a vampire, boo-hoo," or whatever. > That suggests that family knew about Angel at that time (even pre-change), > which suggests that a =lot= of things must have been different. Not necessarily. Little sisters are notorious for being little sneaks who find out stuff their big sisters are trying to keep secret. Dawn may have known and not told Joyce because she was holding it over Buffy's head as a bargaining chip. Berni, who's both a big and a little sister ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/glorysnake On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Donald G. Keller wrote: > A very heavy =Buffy= episode this past Tuesday; I'm intrigued by the > fact that they are clearly going to keep Joyce's health crisis > entirely in the realm of science/medicine, and not involve the > supernatural (and are we disappointed that, for the second time this > season, a mundane explanation applies?). I'm not. I agree with Gayle on this. BTVS is a show about people and their problems, not about demon battles per se, and it is both relevant and significant for Buffy to have mundane problems. She's had them before: school problems, non-supernatural boyfriend problems (there was nothing supernatural about the Parker catastrophe, for instance). > Doesn't the retroactive presence of Dawn in Buffy's life > change =all= of Buffy's relationships? Wouldn't it have been much more > difficult for Buffy to lead her clandestine life the first two seasons > with a (then-10-year-old) sister in the house, too? Doesn't it change the > dynamic of her relationship to Willow and Xander, as well? Their bond is > based partly on the fact that they were all three only children; if Buffy > has a sister that changes things. I don't know what I think about this > just yet, but it's a point worth pondering. I suspect the nature of the spell that created Dawn affects this a lot. If Dawn really had always been there, it would have affected Buffy's life a lot more. Putting her in retroactively, however, only changes things the minimum necessary to get her there. > Back to Riley: what =was= he up to with Sandy? Had he simply made his mind > up to stray and then changed his mind? Or--a point Deirdre also brought > up, which hadn't even occurred to me--did he have the momentary impulse > (after the conversation with Spike) to get himself changed into a > vampire?? And then changed his mind, of course. Either that, or, not having been able to bring himself to kill Spike, he just went for the first vampire he knew he could stake. (But I don't consider that a likely explanation.) > The effects for the creature were an improvement on the > Mayor-snake, but still obviously computer-generated. Maybe, but it was on-camera a lot more, so you could linger on how sheerly awful and sub-Harryhausen it was, especially in the scene where Buffy is fighting it. Ugh, ugh. Bring back Seth Green's stunt double in a monkey suit. Please. > Good episode, on the whole (though last week's is probably best-of-season > so far). Generally it was good, yes, and I agree with most of your notes about good writing and good acting. Hilary wrote: >Someone speculated somewhere (and it could even have been this >list) that Dawn was responsible for Joyce's illness, I was reminded of >this when the doctor started asking all of those questions (cellphone >usage etc.); Dawn is theoretically very powerful and it might not be >intentional. I hope this idea doesn't pan out though. Even if this is the case, it doesn't change the mundane nature of the crisis, though it would add a different crisis (Dawn emits microwaves?) on top of it. >I did think it was a good point that she hadn't revoked his access into >her house. And it's pretty clear that he believes at least some of what >he said, or else he wants to believe it. I really wonder about that. Why not? Phaedre wrote: >Observation: Glory has a deadline (remember her reference to the ticking of >the clock)? Could that be the weakness that helps them defeat her? I noticed that too. Glory is the new Adam: too powerful to fight in the normal way. At least she's more interesting than Adam. Geographical trivia. 1) The Magic Shop ad has the Santa Barbara area code, 805, on the phone number. Not that we need any more confirmation of where Sunnydale is, but there you have it. 2) Just after the talk between Xander and Riley, at the start of a set of scenes of the snake on the run, there's a quick shot of a building which might actually be the Santa Barbara Mission. Anyway, it looks like it, but I'm not going to go to the trouble to confirm this. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:30:02 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/glorysnake In a message dated 11/25/00 9:23:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, dbratman@genie.idt.net writes: << > Back to Riley: what =was= he up to with Sandy? Had he simply made his mind > up to stray and then changed his mind? Or--a point Deirdre also brought > up, which hadn't even occurred to me--did he have the momentary impulse > (after the conversation with Spike) to get himself changed into a > vampire?? And then changed his mind, of course. >> I thought there was intended to be a parallel between this and what Spike was saying about the Slayer having a death-wish, a curiosity about death that brings her close to the edge. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:43:40 -0500 From: Robert Stacy Subject: Re: b/glorysnake GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/25/00 9:23:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, > dbratman@genie.idt.net writes: > > << > > Back to Riley: what =was= he up to with Sandy? Had he simply made his mind > > up to stray and then changed his mind? Or--a point Deirdre also brought > > up, which hadn't even occurred to me--did he have the momentary impulse > > (after the conversation with Spike) to get himself changed into a > > vampire?? And then changed his mind, of course. > >> > > I thought there was intended to be a parallel between this and what Spike > was saying about the Slayer having a death-wish, a curiosity about death that > brings her close to the edge. > > Gayle Yes! There it is. That's the nub, Gayle. Riley's feeling outside (say, like a Slayer?), and Buffy's shutting him out of the Dawn/Key program. Remember, this guy threw his military career out the window for this woman, and now he's being (or feeling as though he's) shunted to a side track. Add to that the previously drug-enhanced physical abilities, now lost. . . . That solo return to the vampire-occupied crypt could have been handled differently: crack the door, toss in the grenade, and run. Riley chose a chancier stance, confronting and taunting the occupants before he laid that explosive egg on the floor. The man's proving stuff to himself in a way that will get him killed if he keeps it up . . . and he's feeling the absence of that link, that connectedness, that's kept the real Slayer alive thus far. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #220 *****************************