From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #218 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Tuesday, November 21 2000 Volume 02 : Number 218 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/spike! ["Susan Kroupa" ] Re: b/spike! ["Susan Kroupa" ] b/bad dvd news [Todd Huff ] b/scripts ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: b/bad dvd news ["Berni Phillips" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:12:55 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/spike! I think Benz has done an excellent job portraying the newly vulnerable Darla. But the two shows back to back make me wonder just how many villians are going to be rehabilitated. I would have preferred the thread to follow Faith, who's always been more interesting--her energy heightens every scene she's in. I have questions, too, about the sudden suffering experienced after receiving a soul. There are plenty of people with souls who inflict unspeakable misery and cruelty upon others--having a soul or conscience doesn't mean one will heed it. Perhaps, in the logic of the show, having a soul after _not_ having one for centuries makes it more keenly felt? One of the things I've liked about Angel is that his remorse over his past is plainly not enough--he works every day to replace the bad he's done with good. Another thing I've liked is that he's still tempted periodically to backslide. I think the Darla situation can be interesting if she remains an antagonist to Angel or even if she doesn't, if her road to repentance or rehabilitation isn't too smooth. But, heck, if we're going to follow yet another character on the road to rehabilitation, I'd rather it be Faith. Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald G. Keller To: Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:04 AM Subject: b/spike! > I find it interesting that some people are tired of Darla; David makes a > good point that she's less interesting as a gloating vampire. I've been > very impressed with Julie Benz' performance this season, and regret that > she hadn't been given better material before this. I hope we'll get to see > more of Darla as the season goes on. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:35:15 -0800 From: "Susan Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/spike! I'll agree that the way the scene was set up that Spike had the emotional high ground--Buffy's remark seemed unusually cruel. But I'm uncomfortable with the way it was set up for exactly the reasons Micole stated. Understanding Spike's actions, by learning what past events helped form (or deform) his personality, doesn't erase the evil he's done any more than understanding that a child abuser was most likely abused himself (or herself) takes away the pain and horror felt by the newest victim of abuse. Spike has always been one of my favorite characters because, while he is evil, he is often the one in the group not afraid to baldly state the truth. And Marsters is a great actor--he's made Spike a distinctive personality (much more so than, say, Darla, for example.) And, of course, he's quite funny. But when I start to get too sympathetic to him, I remember all the terrible things he's done. If we flashed-back on all of the victims' lives, we'd most likely be sympathetic to them too. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have compassion for all of them. We should. But understanding doesn't undo evil. One heartless remark by Buffy does not equate to centuries of heartless actions by Spike. Sue - ----- Original Message ----- From: Micole Sudberg To: Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 9:12 PM Subject: Re: b/spike! > At 10:56 PM 11/19/00 -0500, Dori wrote: > >>This seems to be a pretty common reaction to Buffy's gesture, and I just > >>don't get it. Spike -- unrepetant serial killer and torturer. Buffy -- > >>cruel one-liner in response to an intrusive comment and unwelcome advance. > >>(You can argue that it wasn't entirely *unwanted*, though I'm still on the > >>fence about this; but it was certainly unwelcome, and Spike had to know > >>that perfectly well, even if he didn't want to believe it.) I just don't > >>see Spike having the moral high ground here. > > > >No, he's got the emotional high ground. We've just seen how those > >words drove the human William right into Drusilla's fangs, and in > >such a way that we felt for the poor guy. We understand where Spike > >is coming from a lot better now, and a great many things about him > >make a lot more sense--for instance, his feelings for Drusilla, which > >were genuine and deep, if expressed in a vampire sort of way. TPTB > >have gone to great pains to make us feel sympathy for William's > >humiliation, we've seen how Spike, despite his worse instincts, is > >driven to help Buffy, even though she never notices or acknowledges > >it, and then there's that whole unrequited love thing, which is > >guaranteed sympathy right there. We perceive Cecily as a bitch for > >being so cruel to William, and when Buffy does the same thing, in the > >same words--instant antipathy. > > > >Joss is playing on othe feeling that it's just wrong to treat someone > >who loves you badly. And Spike does love Buffy; I can't see any > >other interpretation for that last scene than that assuaging her pain > >suddenly became more important to him than vengeance for his own pain > >and humiliation. > > Yes, I see all that. But for me, this is all counterbalanced by a quite > understandable horror on Buffy's part, coming from her knowledge of Spike's > crimes, the fact that she's injured and scared, the fact that Spike has > just been gleefully telling her about killing other Slayers and describing > how likely he is to eventually kill her. > > >> and then there's the one line which I find tremendously sad: "I may be a > >> bad poet, but I'm a good man" -- which isn't really borne out by his > >> actions or words, though clearly he believes it. > > > >Er, huh? Could you elaborate, please? What was there to indicate > >that he might not be a good man? > > His only moral statement prior to that is that he doesn't have an opinion > on the plague of murders in the city because he prefers to concentrate on > the beautiful, not the ugly. > I'm not saying this makes him a *bad* man; I am saying that it doesn't > qualify him as positively good. He's sensitive, yes, and he has a sweet > smile, and he's quite desperately in love with Cecily; but that is about > being endearing, not about being good. > > The comment about being a "good man" rather surprised me, actually, because > prior to that they'd seemed to be setting him up as being an Oscar > Wilde-influenced aesthete who would not have necessarily considered > "goodness" a relevant point. (Someone will now probably point out that > I've got the dates for Wilde completely wrong and it's chronologically > impossible for him to have influenced William in 1880, and I am leaving > myself completely open to this by being far too lazy to go look this up. > Fire away. :) > > --m. > > -- > > "There's trees in the desert since you moved out. And I don't sleep on a > bed of bones."--Joss Whedon, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: b/bad dvd news I've read a report that the season one dvd release will not occur in January as previously announced and that amazon.com is issuing refunds for preorders. Bad news in the short run, but it might mean Joss is planning to put more interviews and other goodies into them. Let's hope so. Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:53:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/scripts It's "help me!" time again. Pocket Books has just released the entire set of 1st-season shooting scripts for =Buffy= in two modest-priced trade paperbacks. Could I resist? I could not. Very nuts & bolts: no photos (except stock cover shots), full scripts in the usual format and blocky typewriter type, about 60 pages per. Each volume has this little disclaimer: "Historian's Note: These teleplays represent the original shooting scripts for each episode; thus we have preserved any typos and misattributions. The scripts may include dialogue or even full scenes that were not in the final broadcast version of the show because they were cut due to length. Also, there may be elements in the broadcast that were added at a later date." Fun stuff. I've only read "Welcome to the Hellmouth"/"The Harvest" so far, but I've skimmed through the rest. Lots of bits I don't remember (including a major scene between Buffy and Joyce in re Angel in "Angel"--Joyce sensed what was going on more than we thought from the final), and Joss Whedon's stage directions are often very funny. The introduction of Xander: "ANGLE: A SKATEBOARD "Weaving along the road. On it is XANDER, dressed with the shaggy indifference common to skateboarders. "He is bright, funny, and will one day be suave and handsome. Till that day arrives, he'll do the best he can with bright and funny." Much more to come. Wonder how long it'll be before they release the next batch... Great discussion, guys. I hope to join in soon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:47:58 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/bad dvd news I was one of those who had preordered and got the message from Amazon saying that it wasn't coming out as expected. Berni - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Huff" > I've read a report that the season one dvd release > will not occur in January as previously announced and > that amazon.com is issuing refunds for preorders. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #218 *****************************