From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #112 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Wednesday, May 17 2000 Volume 02 : Number 112 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/comments5/14 [meredith ] b/primeval/blinddate ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: b/primeval/blinddate [allenw ] Re: b/primeval/blinddate [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/primeval/blinddate ["David S. Bratman" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:09:07 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/comments5/14 Hi! spoiler space for those of us with VCR's or on the West Coast: So, let's list the influences in this week's episode: - -- The Matrix - -- The X-Files - -- Cleopatra 2525?!?!? (When Adam's arm did the Transformer thing into the machine gun, I couldn't believe it. He turned into a Betrayer Robot. That's basically all he was anyway, but come ON.) Now, let's see how Don fared on this week's scorecard, shall we? >-There are =still= important things we don't know about Riley, and >we at last will find out about them--and they'll be crucial to the >plot-resolution. Bingo. Not least of which is that he's able to remove something from a very important nerve in his body without any damage or fatal loss of blood. (How far did they get in zombifying him, anyway?) >-Riley's participation in fact will be necessary. Right again. >-Adam will be "dismembered" in some manner. Yep. With his power in Buffy's grasp, no less. >-Spike, as Allen said, will betray Adam in some way; and he =won't= >get the chip out of his head. Well, this is half right - Spike screwed up, and his turning at the end can't really be perceived as a betrayal of Adam, since at that point I believe Adam was already dead. But he still does have that chip in his head, and probably will for some time to come, now that the Initiative is (thankfully) no more. >-Buffy keeps saying she knows Riley, and trusts him. This smells >like a setup. It was, but not Riley's fault. Half points again. >-=Somebody= (Xander, Giles, Willow in descending order of >likelihood) will figure out that Spike was "playing" them, and >everybody will get a grip and figure out a way to help Buffy. Bzzzt, thank you for playing. It was Buffy -- thanks to Spike and his big mouth. >It's important to note here that =Buffy doesn't know= about Spike's >"helpful hints" because he and she were never present at the same >time. ... and this proved crucial to her figuring out what was going on. Clever. >And I wanted to state that Buffy's line about there being no ancient >prophecy about the Chosen One and her friends is one of the angriest >and bitterest things she's ever said to =anyone= (even Faith), much >less to her two nearest and dearest friends. She will regret saying >it. Yes on both counts, but the regret was in the real friendship sense, and not in a real plot sense. I like that. (Buffy and Willow's reconciliation whilst rappelling down the elevator shaft was a stitch and a half.) >Meredith: You're asking the right questions about Riley, it seems to >me. I'm not sure Forrest's death acted as a "trigger" (in the >metaphorically mechanistic sense of Angel's "trigger"); I'm more inclined >to use Occam's Razor and say that it was merely the last straw for >Riley. But how he found Adam so quickly and easily demands an explanation, >and the vitamins and a possible implant are certainly interesting areas of >speculation. Implant wins. I guess the triggering of the implant happening at the same time as Buffy told him about Forrest's death was just a coincidence. >I'm not sure how I feel about this. I've always felt that Buffy's >superpowers were nicely delimited, that they solved problems only up to a >point, and she also needed her heat-of-battle ingenuity and the help of >her friends to solve the rest of the problems. (This is what separates her >from Kendra and Faith.) If they're going to turn her into Supergirl, I'm >going to take some convincing. Well, looks like you're off the hook. I'm SO glad the "extra superpowers" turned out to be as the result of a team-effort spell by Giles, Willow, and Xander. And they were cool ones, too! One has to wonder, though -- will there be any aftereffects? On the one hand I was disappointed that Anya and Tara got shuffled off into minor-character-land for this one, but on the other it makes perfect sense. The Scooby Gang is back together, and stronger than ever (has Xander ever participated in a successful spell before?). They don't need the new girlfriends to band together and help Buffy get out of this one. Line of the episode: Xander's "Anybody else missing the Mayor?" :) I'm a bit nervous about next week's preview ... we've DONE dreamlands and nightmares coming true before. What does that have to do with anything, and why that for a season finale??? But as we know, with Joss ANYthing is possible... +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:54:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: b/primeval/blinddate A G A I N , S P O I L E R S P A C E ! The =first= thing I want to say is about the =Angel= episode. Notice how Mr. Lindsay MacDonald suddenly stopped being a stereotype =as soon as he started to doubt=? What'd I tell you. I was glad they did that: I think the actor (whose name, shamefully, I don't know) has done a very good job of being a two-dimensional slimy lawyer, and I'm glad they gave him a chewier part. And interesting after that blatantly Satan & Jesus on the Mountaintop scene, we don't find out what Lindsey decides. (Not a two-part finale, officially, either.) On to =Buffy=. I think if we'd never seen another season-ending two- parter on this show, we might have thought, well, it was pretty good. And it =was= =pretty= good. But not what we've been spoiled to expect. (Remember that next week is the real finale, though.) This will be a little fuller than usual first-reaction, because a coworker begged me to lend my tape out tomorrow. Good twist to give us, finally, what's up with Riley (chip! but not in head!). But what was the plan? What was in the syringe? Was it his feelings for Buffy that allowed him to countermand his "programming"? (And note the "rhyme" of Riley de-chipping himself and Buffy "de-powering" Adam!) It was all too clear all too early that Spike wasn't going to lose his chip. So it'll remain a plot point next season. And note how Spike figured out a way to (semi-)ingratiate himself with the gang. Well, I was =dead= wrong. It =was= Buffy (why is it =always= Buffy??) who figured out that Spike was playing them all (partly of course because of Spike's Freudian slip). Nicely played, the way everybody was so uncomfortable, even when they met on campus (which struck me as odd; just to stay away from places they'd be looked for?) Loved the Sumerian joke, of course (and I think that =was= Sumerian later on). Such a typical (but swell) =Buffy= scene of Buffy and Willow getting clear with one another again. Expected but well done (and nice context going down the cables!). Buffy'll apologize to Willow... I said to myself at the half-hour break that they'd never wrap it all up in half an hour. But they did. I'll admit it. I'm always a sucker for Buffy speeches that include the line "I'm the Slayer," even if they basically amount to "nyah nyah, I'm better than you." The fight in the Initative was too well-lit and not crowded enough. It was all too easy for the gang to run a "football play" and make it all the way across the installation. Didn't realize the significance of Buffy's "I won't be" (alone, that is) until the second time through. I kind of felt it was terribly undignified to Frankenstein up the actors playing Dr. Walsh and Forrest (and the other doctor). Looked dumb, too. How many episodes has Buffy solved the combat problem with the judicious application of electricity? Several. (That was a looong setup: I kept waiting for the exposed wire to Chekhov [playwright] its way back into the plot.) On reflection I think "Primeval" wasn't the right title for the episode; I think I'd have called it "The Enjoining." Well, I did think the Buffy Gets Superpowers schtick was a little hokey. Just how, again, does the addition of her three friends' abilities basicially enhance her Slayer powers? We may never find out. I have to admit it was =somewhat= delimited; that's a spell they can't cast every week, because it can't be interrupted and leaves the spellcasters vulnerable. (Interesting they left Tara and Anya out of the plot, by the way. Founding Scoobies Only!) OK. Spiritus = Spirit, Animus = Heart?? Psy[ph]us[??] = Mind and Manus = Hand. Interesting. Not Tarot imagery. It's a quaternity, notice (very common to have symbol-sets in fours instead of threes, says Jung, but =please= let's not get into that now...) Clever to have the final scene being the committee recommendation with "film-over" of how the fight was resolved in the Initiative. And a pretty predictable fate for the Initiative. Next week looks real strange and special-effect-y. Dreams! I think on the whole I liked the =Angel= episode a little better. All for now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:14:03 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/primeval/blinddate BUFFY/ANGEL SPOILERS BELOW v v v v v v v v v v v BUFFY: Liked it, but didn't love it. I managed to stay mostly-genuine-spoiler-free, but there were still very few "wow!" or "cool!" or "neat!" (or even "hmmm...") moments in it for me (with almost all of those few being in the big Adam fight; loved Adam's "upgrade"). An adequate, workmanlike resolution, but nothing more. However, here's a "hmmm..." thought: While I thought Prof Walsh was mostly wasted, consider her one real line: "Be a good boy, Riley." Just before she injects Riley's right arm (for no explained reason). The very arm that Riley is later able to use (for no explained reason) to help defeat Adam. Coincidence? I'm hoping NOT. Also: after careful examination of next week's preview, I've realize that Amber Benson is not "a hottie," as some would have it. She's THE hottie. ANGEL: Now *this* is more like it. Pacing drama, acting, moral decisions... goodness. So, is Lindsey telling himself he'll keep on being a spy on the inside, or is he beyond rationalizing? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ SPOILERS ABOVE - -Allen W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:16:24 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/primeval/blinddate In a message dated 5/16/00 8:56:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dgk@panix.com writes: << Well, I did think the Buffy Gets Superpowers schtick was a little hokey. Just how, again, does the addition of her three friends' abilities basicially enhance her Slayer powers? We may never find out. >> That was explained in the episode. For the spell to work, the witch casting it had to be physically near to Adam, and the spell had to be spoken in Sumerian. Willow could not get near Adam and Giles knew the Sumerian, hence Buffy channeled them. How do they enhance her Slayer powers? Well, when have we ever seen Buffy use magic in a fight before? And defeating Adam required magic. She couldn't have done it with her Slayer strength alone. << Psy[ph]us[??] = Mind >> Cephus = Mind (really means head, of course) Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:49:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/primeval/blinddate OK, I'll put in the spoiler space this time, because it's only been over out here for an hour: Donald wrote: > The =first= thing I want to say is about the =Angel= episode. Notice > how Mr. Lindsay MacDonald suddenly stopped being a stereotype =as > soon as he started to doubt=? What'd I tell you. > > I was glad they did that: I think the actor (whose name, shamefully, > I don't know) has done a very good job of being a two-dimensional > slimy lawyer, and I'm glad they gave him a chewier part. Christian Kane. (Man, do I love IMDB.) I thought this was a highly interesting set of scenes, which leaves open one significant mystery: since Hollis knows what Lindsay has done, and we know what Hollis is capable of, what does he continue to see in Lindsay and what is he hoping for? Is Lindsay going to sell himself for a big office with a wide desk? Man, _my_ office is almost that big, and so's my desk. > And interesting after that blatantly Satan & Jesus on the > Mountaintop scene, we don't find out what Lindsey decides. What the scene reminded me of literarily was Nietzsche. Sub-sub-Nietzsche, to be precise. It's highly elliptical, but one suspects that Hollis has sold himself for power, and the power makes him feel good. What _that_ reminds me of is 1) Frankenstein-Forrest's self-justification, and 2) the similar self-justification of a whole string of newly-made vampires down to last week's _Angel_'s little sister. (By the way, the awareness that, according to the official mythology, the vampire isn't the dead person but a demon with access to their memories has spoiled every such vampire scene for me since I was told it. It takes all the poignancy straight out.) > On to =Buffy=. I think if we'd never seen another season-ending two- > parter on this show, we might have thought, well, it was pretty > good. And it =was= =pretty= good. But not what we've been spoiled to > expect. (Remember that next week is the real finale, though.) My understanding is that this was the "real" finale: next week's is an epilogue. Good thing, too, as I'll have to miss it, and catch the videotape later. > Good twist to give us, finally, what's up with Riley (chip! but not > in head!). But what was the plan? What was in the syringe? Was it > his feelings for Buffy that allowed him to countermand his > "programming"? (And note the "rhyme" of Riley de-chipping himself > and Buffy "de-powering" Adam!) That Riley had a chip is one of those things that's obvious once you know it. Good one. But I agree that his ripping it out of his chest and walking away with barely a stain was absurd. Notice your prediction that Buffy's faith in Riley would be a set-up. It wasn't. (Except that your expectation that it would be a set-up was a set-up.) Now, if Adam's mind-control had caused Riley to attack Buffy instead of merely sitting still and shutting up, and if Buffy had misunderstood the cause of this, _then_ it would have been a set-up. And this could have been an interesting plot twist, but there wasn't time for it, what with everything else packed in. > It was all too clear all too early that Spike wasn't going to lose > his chip. So it'll remain a plot point next season. And note how > Spike figured out a way to (semi-)ingratiate himself with the gang. Someone said uptopic that Spike isn't stupid. Wrong: Spike is extremely stupid, as the great scene in which he fumbles Adam's orders forward, backward, and sideways demonstrates. > I'll admit it. I'm always a sucker for Buffy speeches that include the > line "I'm the Slayer," even if they basically amount to "nyah nyah, I'm > better than you." My favorite of those is still the one in the first episode of season 3: [Vampire, expecting a glum "nobody":] "Who are you?" [B, cheerfully:] "I'm Buffy, the vampire slayer." > The fight in the Initative was too well-lit and not crowded enough. It was > all too easy for the gang to run a "football play" and make it all the way > across the installation. Absolutely. > I kind of felt it was terribly undignified to Frankenstein up the actors > playing Dr. Walsh and Forrest (and the other doctor). Looked dumb, too. In keeping with Adam, though, who has looked dumb since day one. > How many episodes has Buffy solved the combat problem with the judicious > application of electricity? Several. (That was a looong setup: I kept > waiting for the exposed wire to Chekhov [playwright] its way back into the > plot.) I thought that was Dumas, not Chekhov ... Somehow I'm reminded of an episode of _The Prisoner_, "The Schizoid Man", where Number Six cures himself of brainwashing by sticking his finger in a socket and giving himself an electric shock. Y'know, that's my favorite tv series of all time, but even it could be a bit stupid sometimes. > On reflection I think "Primeval" wasn't the right title for the episode; I > think I'd have called it "The Enjoining." > > Well, I did think the Buffy Gets Superpowers schtick was a little > hokey. Just how, again, does the addition of her three friends' abilities > basicially enhance her Slayer powers? We may never find out. Well, duh, they all speak in unison out of Buffy's mouth, like. And Buffy gets those weird eyes just like that woman on _Angel_ except they're yellow and glow in the dark (instead of being white and glowing in the dark). Jeez. What really bugged me was Adam's bewilderment. "My mighty mystical unknowable powers can beat your puny science anytime, monkey boy!" > I have to admit it was =somewhat= delimited; that's a spell they can't > cast every week, because it can't be interrupted and leaves the > spellcasters vulnerable. (Interesting they left Tara and Anya out of the > plot, by the way. Founding Scoobies Only!) Really bizarre, actually. Now it's Tara who's the umbrella left in the corner. Considering what Willow was planning to do in Room 314, why on earth she didn't bring Tara along ... How many people think that it was Tara who caused the Institute computer files to self-decrypt before Willow could finish running the program? > Clever to have the final scene being the committee recommendation with > "film-over" of how the fight was resolved in the Initiative. And a pretty > predictable fate for the Initiative. I would have loved to see the debriefing of the Scoobies, Riley, and the Colonel which led the committee to this conclusion. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #112 *****************************