From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #75 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, April 6 2000 Volume 02 : Number 075 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/superstar ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/superstar [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/superstar [Dori ] Re: b/superstar ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/superstar [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/superstar ["Hilary L. Hertzoff" ] Re: b/superstar [Todd Huff ] Re: b/superstar [allenw ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:59:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/superstar On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Donald G. Keller wrote: > Danny Strong was terrific. (But boy is he short! SMG in heels is > taller!) And wasn't it a kick to have all those clips of > him all through the credits? Laughed a lot at the spy-show music. (And the > swing music! Very clever.) Yes, I got a kick out of all of that too. (If I were in charge of the world I would change the music a lot faster than I'd make myself a superhero, that's for sure.) Pity they couldn't have put Strong's name in the credits in big letters, but I expect there were contractual reasons for that. (He did do a good job: I was particularly impressed with the way they the decay of Jonathan's personality was shown in the middle of a fight scene.) > Curious that Anya got hung up on shrimp and =didn't= blurt out the > alternate world that actually =did= happen (bet she does remember) Is the shrimp a reference to something in "The Wish"? > So the prediction was right, it was an alternate reality created by > Jonathan, but by a spell (which makes more sense in Buffyland). It was > really eerie (like "The Wish") in that it was hard to figure out what was > a continuation of baseline reality and what was alternate. Good job there. > > Really odd that Adam knew it was a sham. But some useful information about > his nature and what it will take to destroy him. (Nuclear accident?) Throughout the first half of the episode, before the Adam scene, I was wondering how much, if any, of the new information and new events (the exposition of Adam's nature, the Riley/Buffy interplay) was "real" and how much was an artifact of the alternate universe. "We need a clue," I said, and then Adam provides one. Well, CONGRATULATIONS, Joss! This is the first useful thing Adam has done all season! In one sense, it turns out that what we're in is not an alternate universe at all: everything that happens remains having happened, and only the strictly Jonathan stuff leaves no trace. E.g., what happens between Riley and Buffy is a permanent stage in their relationship. People even remember the events. In that sense this episode is very different from "The Wish", which was a true alternate reality in the sfnal sense. I think we can therefore assume that what Jonathan says about Adam's nature is true. > I thought that was one of the best =Angel= episodes of the season: real > tension between Angel and Rebecca, escalating into a Situation (are we > going to get tired of Just Kidding! variations, though?) One I'll watch > again. Yeah, pretty good, though embarrassing for Cordelia. (Was that "The Doll's House" she was playing in?) The problem with the ending was that it _wasn't_ a Just Kidding!, in the sense that Angel really changed, or _thought_ he did; yet he still spent his time pacing around and _talking_ about what he was going to do instead of doing it, the way he did when he was faking with Faith. I admired the subtlety of that at the time, but now I'm not so sure. This could have been the scriptwriter treading water because he didn't want to kill Rebecca off, and consequently it could have been the same thing with Faith. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:04:17 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/superstar In a message dated 4/5/00 9:01:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dbratman@genie.idt.net writes: << In one sense, it turns out that what we're in is not an alternate universe at all: everything that happens remains having happened, and only the strictly Jonathan stuff leaves no trace. E.g., what happens between Riley and Buffy is a permanent stage in their relationship. People even remember the events. In that sense this episode is very different from "The Wish", which was a true alternate reality in the sfnal sense. I think we can therefore assume that what Jonathan says about Adam's nature is true. >> Yes, it's not what I would call an alternate universe, but rather an altered version of the "standard" universe. So I'd say my speculation was wrong. Cute episode but not much more. Opening was a clever touch. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:54:51 -0400 From: Dori Subject: Re: b/superstar >Cute episode but not much more. Opening was a clever touch. Well, I did like the scene with Spike and Buffy, when he's playing with her hair. Melted me right into goo, it did. I loved the way Spike's line was worded, too; very ambiguous, and the B/S shippers probably took it differently from the way it was intended. OTOH, I wouldn't put it past Jane Espenson to have put that ambiguity in on purpose. I'm very interested in this whole Buffy/Spike dynamic, especially after what Faith did to him in WHO ARE YOU. I do believe our Spike has been thinking about that incident more than he ought... There were many wonderful bits--Xander and Anya =both= getting hot and bothered by Jonathan's singing was hysterical, and by far the best line in the episode--maybe in the whole season so far--was Giles' exasperated, "Xander, don't speak Latin in front of the books." Loved that, and it'll show up in sig lines before long, or I'm a cat. The thing I really liked about Jonathan was that he didn't hesitate to let Buffy defeat the monster and end his fantasy life when he saw that it was necessary. He's such a genuinely nice guy. Speaking of Jonathan, does anyone remember, in the PROM, if it was mentioned who Jonathan's date was? I found that very interesting, because ordinarily the geeky guy wouldn't have a date to the prom on any other show, but there's Jonathan with some girl in a red dress, and no fuss made. - -- Dori cleindor@cfw.com - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Torture first. It's better that way. Troll maxim - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:12:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/superstar On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > Yes, it's not what I would call an alternate universe, but rather an > altered version of the "standard" universe. So I'd say my speculation was > wrong. I wouldn't count that out, since it pretty much functioned as an alternate universe, especially in the way the past was retroactively changed (or, more accurately, people's memories were). The distinction is epistemological. You were certainly on the right track. > Cute episode but not much more. Opening was a clever touch. Yes. I'd hate to have been watching this one with a first-time viewer. Reading over my previous post, I think I should clarify my reasoning to assume that Jonathan's statements about Adam are true. Since this is (in a sense) the "real" universe, I think Jonathan has, through his spell-acquired powers, access to the "real" information about Adam, just as he knows the truth about Buffy and Riley: their relationship is, neither in whole nor in part, a figment of his imagination, and he doesn't find out about it only when Buffy talks to him in the cafe. The pre-spell Jonathan would have no way of knowing about this: therefore if the spell can give him facts about some things that Super-Jonathan (if he "really" existed) would know or could find out, it could do the same for other things. It's touching, in its odd way, that Jonathan doesn't try to take Buffy for himself. He's content with his sex kittens, and he really does care for her as a friend. This ties in with his behavior when the jig is up. Too bad his ego was so unbounded in other respects, or he might have gotten away with it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:00:47 EDT From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/superstar Agree with Cleindori about the Spike moment, and there were a lot of witty touches. Lots of little chuckles but no really compellingly hilarious moments, IMO, unlike most of the funny eps. But what really disappoints me is that the arc appears to be dead in the water. This time last year where were we in the Faith arc? This time the year before where were we in the Angel arc? I don't know exactly what eps we were at at this point, but I'm pretty sure that in April of the previous two years I was dying to find out what was going to happen, hated the suspense. Now, who gives a poop? Riley and Buffy resolve a crisis about Faith... yeah, I was sure losing sleep worrying about that. Adam probably needs a nuclear bomb to blow him up (maybe the season will end with the nuclear immolation of Sunnydale?) but otherwise, Adam, yawn. Willow and Tara are holding hands -- that sure has me on the edge of my seat with suspense. A new leader of the Initiative -- (that's the sound of snoring). I imagine that some interesting stuff will happen toward the end of the season, but the story arc sure does lack interest and impetus. I'm really starting to suspect that it is true that helming two series is dividing Joss's genius too much. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hilary L. Hertzoff" Subject: Re: b/superstar I need to watch this episode again...somehow it didn't catch me until the end. I liked bits and pieces but it didn't really come together for me. I hate that hairstyle on Buffy! Though I loved Spike playing with her hair. This seems to be Joss's (that doesn't look right) year for "fan-fic" episodes; first the Angel/Buffy roll in the hay; then Jonathan and the ultimate Mary Sue adventure; and then Angelus returns for about two seconds. I did like the way Jonathan remained a basically nice guy both in the way he tried to work things out with Buffy and Riley and in the end. The spell wasn't done out of malice and he doesn't become malicious to hold on to what he's got when it becomes clear that people are being hurt by it. I liked the way the world wasn't altered otherwise and that if you looked closely the ongoing threads progressed: Riley's still not sure he believes in magic; Tara's being integrated into the group (what was Willow worried about???); the Spike and Buffy subtext; Riley and Buffy's relationship continues to evolve and none of this was lost when the spell was undone. The scene at Giles (which has unobtrusively become the Scooby gang's meeting place this year) when they discussed spells has to be one of my favorite Buffy scenes of all time. I hope Jonathan never gets to be a member of the Scooby gang because (as this episode reinforced) he symbolises the outsider; he knows what's going on but he doesn't participate and at this point his inclusion would feel forced. Sigh, with all of these good points, I don't know why I didn't like this episode better. I really need to rewatch it. Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, Mamaroneck Public Library a bunny goes where a bunny Mamaroneck, NY must. hhertzof@wlsmail.wls.lib.ny.us Little Bunny on the Move hhertzoff@panix.com by Peter McCarty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:49:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/superstar A fair-to-middlin' episode, with a few good laughs (Giles line to Xander about the books, Buffy calling Riley Jonathon at the end and the movie marquee: "Being Jonathon Levinson") and few minor advances to the arc (new Initiative leader, the source of Adam's power, Riley/Buffy reconciled). I don't think there's a whole lot left to say about it, other than it was nice seeing Jonathon back. Him being on campus at the end kind of implies that he's enrolled as well, so catching him hanging around again is certainly a possibility. Angel was a better ep than usual, and I was pleased to see Gorski used well. "And I thought I knew eternity" was a great line, and Carpenter is doing a fine job of portraying a terrible actress. I'm glad Cordelia has finally had it pointed out to her just how bad she is and it'll be interesting to see if she gives up her dreams of acting or starts taking lessons. Wesley is becoming more and more likable. Reruns for at least two more weeks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:41:58 -0500 (CDT) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/superstar On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Hilary L. Hertzoff wrote: > I liked the way the world wasn't altered otherwise and that if you looked > closely the ongoing threads progressed: Riley's still not sure he believes > in magic; Tara's being integrated into the group (what was Willow worried > about???); the Spike and Buffy subtext; Riley and Buffy's relationship > continues to evolve and none of this was lost when the spell was undone. > I think (nay, I predict) that, in retrospect, the biggest thread development this episode will turn out to have been Xander's: He's seen what he's been missing as valued-competent-guy (and was almost ready to sacrifice Buffy to preserve it), and he's vocalized his dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs. And what was Willow worried about? Well, for one thing, that Tara would get caught up in the Scooby death-n-destruction field, and get hurt. Which is what happened. By the way: The monster attacked Jonathan, Buffy, Tara, and Karen-with-a-"K". Why? We know the first three are significant and supernatural in some way; what about Karen? Why was Karen able to knock over the monster so easily and escape? Why was she staking out Jonathan's place in the first place; mere fan-stalking? Might this be devious foreshadowing? Could she be... Little Sister/Little Miss Muffet? The Next Slayer? A Watcher agent? Or just an obsessed fan swinging a really big book? -Allen W. ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #75 ****************************