From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #52 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, March 2 2000 Volume 02 : Number 052 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/whoareyou ["Susan J. Kroupa" ] Re: b/whoareyou [allenw ] Re: b/whoareyou [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/whoareyou [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/whoareyou ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/whoareyou [allenw ] Re: b/whoareyou [GHighPine@aol.com] b/Dumezil ["Hilary L. Hertzoff" ] Re: b/whoareyou [Todd Huff ] Re: b/whoareyou [marta grabien ] Re: b/whoareyou [GHighPine@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:56:36 -0700 From: "Susan J. Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/whoareyou Hmm. I really liked last night's ep, though yes, I would have loved more of Buffy and Faith onscreen. One thing I liked was that instead of focusing on the cliched device where the "switched" person makes so many mistakes that her friends eventually figure out what has happened, in this ep it is a stranger who realizes all is not well. And, instead of focusing on the effect the switch has on others, this one shows what the difference in how people treat and perceive her makes to Faith. The scene that was especially touching was at the end... spoiler space when Faith, in Buffy's body, is screaming at Buffy, calling Buffy all sorts of horrible things--and we know she's really talking about herself, that in spite of her bravado and all her speeches, Faith really does think she's bad at the core. And she wishes she could be good, could be Buffy. I do wish we'd had even more time with the two of them switched, but for me this was a powerful episode. Sue GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/29/00 8:21:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, dgk@panix.com > writes: > > << > I'll be curious to see what Gayle thinks, but I know I had my hopes > up a bit too high for this (especially when I found out this morning > from the Douglas Petrie interview that Joss Whedon had written it), > and it fell just a bit short. > >> > > The ep showed us what a rich and complex character Faith is. Rich and > wonderful Faith scenes. Great scene with Willow and Tara and the orgasmic > spell-casting. Other than that, I found the ep disappointing in many ways. > > I don't mind being wrong, as long as what they do is better than what I > have speculated. Now we are done with Feb sweeps and I am prepared to be > disappointed with the rest of the season. The Adam thread seems downright > stupid. "I was created to destroy life"? > > Too bad this switch didn't last for the rest of the season, it was better > by far than anything else we have had. So much more could have been explored > with Faith, not to mention the possibilities that were left unexplored > altogether. > > My new speculation: we are winding up for a disappointing finale. > > Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:42:41 -0600 (EST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/whoareyou On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Donald G. Keller wrote: > for next week...Do we have broadcast dates? Or titles for this and last > week's =Angel= episodes? > Donald, This week's Angel was "The Ring". Last week's Angel was "The Prodigal". Gayle, Granted, Adam's "I was created to destroy life" isn't very promising. On the other hand, it's a valid self-analysis, assuming that he was created as a super-weapon. And I like his vampiric self-help courses. -Allen W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:43:57 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/whoareyou I agree with everything you say, Susan. Taken alone, it was a wonderful episode and the only thing wrong with it was that it was too short -- as I said, I would have liked to see this plotline taken to the end of the season. A fascinating exploration of the rich complexity of Faith's character and of her self-image. I like the way that she even tried to explore Buffy's values - -- she was trying to =feel= what it was like to consider certain things to be Wrong. I thought that the scene with Spike was super and the scene with Riley very moving. What disappointed me was the implications for the arc, since I am always on the lookout for clues about the arc. Not only was it a letdown in most =arc= ways, the Adam scenes make me wonder if the Adam subplot is going to turn out to be downright stupid. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:36:15 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/whoareyou In a message dated 3/1/00 8:45:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, allenw@io.com writes: << Granted, Adam's "I was created to destroy life" isn't very promising. On the other hand, it's a valid self-analysis, assuming that he was created as a super-weapon. >> Well, not really. A weapon that destroys everything indiscriminately isn't much of a weapon. A weapon that considers anything living to be its target doesn't give your side any advantage over the other side, not to mention the problems that neutrals and innocent bystanders would have. That is why I groaned, "Oh, no, no thought has gone into this." And since he was the point of the whole Initiative thing, if no real thought was put into Adam and his purpose, no real thought was put into the Initiative and its purpose. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:55:15 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/whoareyou - ---------- >From: "Donald G. Keller" >LET > > > ME > > > KNOW > > > WHEN > > > THERE'S > > > ENOUGH > > > SPOILER > > >SPACE! > >I'll be curious to see what Gayle thinks, but I know I had my hopes >up a bit too high for this (especially when I found out this morning >from the Douglas Petrie interview that Joss Whedon had written it), >and it fell just a bit short. Yes. Faith didn't really have much of a chance to mess up Buffy's life and Buffy didn't live much of Faith's. >=Very= subtle touches: anyone else notice "Buffy" using Faith's >near-Canadian "aboot"s? Or that, Faith being lefthanded, "Buffy" used her >left hand to kill the vampire outside the Bronze? I missed those, but I noticed that Elisha's diction was very crisp and Buffy-in-serious-mode in the scene when she tries to tell the guys from the Watchers' Council who she is. Also, when she goes to see Giles and tries to tell him who she really is, she puts her hair back behind her ear with a very Buffy gesture. (Not to mention the lack of make-up and SMG's Faith-like make-up when Faith's Buffy.) It's interesting to see how poorly Faith-as-Buffy handles human interaction. Her mouth is always running off, but she manages to backtrack and apologize, but her body language is something else. She makes a face when Joyce hugs her. And having a loving, honest relationship with a guy like Riley just isn't in her. She doesn't seem to be able to think of sex without games. Riley's "I love you" really throws her for a loop. She scrambles out of bed afterward and is visibly shaken. When he comes to comfort her, noting that she's shaking, he asks her what's wrong. She says "nothing" twice, the second time in a very flat tone. I suspect that she did not have an orgasm in her plain vanilla sex, and that this really bothered her and gave her something to despair of in stepping into Buffy's life. Then, of course, she tries to run away. Faith is not totally past redemption, however, or she would not have returned to do battle with those vampires. And I'm still skeptical that a pep talk from Adam would have given those vampires enough strength to go out in day- light (okay, they had coats, but still!) into a church with the big crucifix. (That church also looked mighty small. It was the size of a chapel.) From the crucifix, I'd assume it was a Catholic church, which also means holy water is there. What, no one thought to throw holy water on the vampires? >I'm gathering from the lack of "next week" promos that they're doing >reruns 3/8. And here I was a good boy and stayed away from the =TV Guide= >for next week...Do we have broadcast dates? Or titles for this and last >week's =Angel= episodes? February is a sweeps month; March isn't. Just about everything's in re-runs next week, including Buffy and Angel. On Buffy, it's the Oz- attracted-to-Veruca episode. The series premiere of Angel is being shown. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:37:53 -0600 (EST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/whoareyou On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/00 8:45:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, allenw@io.com > writes: > << Granted, Adam's "I was created to destroy life" isn't very promising. > On the other hand, it's a valid self-analysis, assuming that he was > created as a super-weapon. >> > Well, not really. A weapon that destroys everything indiscriminately isn't > much of a weapon. A weapon that considers anything living to be its target > doesn't give your side any advantage over the other side, not to mention the > problems that neutrals and innocent bystanders would have. That is why I > groaned, "Oh, no, no thought has gone into this." And since he was the point > of the whole Initiative thing, if no real thought was put into Adam and his > purpose, no real thought was put into the Initiative and its purpose. Not necessarily. I share some of your concern, but I'm not sure Adam is so poorly thought-out: 1: A weapon is (generally) "created to destroy life". *Which* life it destroys is (ideally) the decision of the user. Presumably, Adam was intended to have a user; however, as he's remarked, there seems to be an error in his programming, and he's now self-guided. As he matures, he seems to be starting to make his own judgements about targets. 2: I'm not sure that Adam was "the point of the whole Initiative thing." In the context of the Buffyverse, the Initiative seems to have a lot of irons in the fire, of which Adam was not necessarily the most important. And in the context of the show's writing, Adam is a big part of the Initiative plot, but I think the Buffy/Riley, Civillian/Military, Individual/Group, Old/New, and Magic/Tech dichotomies are more "the point" than Adam himself is. -Allen W. p.s. A speculation, sparked by USENET questions about why the Council left Faith in her hospital bed for so long: What if her devoted Watcher/Nurse was stopping Faith's heart every now and then? Say every month... or every week... or every day? The Council could have a secret army of dozens, or hundreds, of Kendra-loyal Slayers by now. Now, I don't think this is the case, but only because I don't think Joss Whedon really wants to further muddy the multiple-slayers issue. Otherwise, it fits. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:45:55 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/whoareyou In a message dated 3/1/00 8:45:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, allenw@io.com writes: << Granted, Adam's "I was created to destroy life" isn't very promising. On the other hand, it's a valid self-analysis, assuming that he was created as a super-weapon. >> Well, not really. A weapon that destroys everything indiscriminately isn't much of a weapon. A weapon that considers anything living to be its target doesn't give your side any advantage over the other side, not to mention the problems that neutrals and innocent bystanders would have. That is why I groaned, "Oh, no, no thought has gone into this." And since he was the point of the whole Initiative thing, if no real thought was put into Adam and his purpose, no real thought was put into the Initiative and its purpose. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Hilary L. Hertzoff" Subject: b/Dumezil I'm in the middle of the Slotkin trilogy now (two of the three volumes were actually available at the library where I work and the third easily gotten through ILL) and am looking to read some of the Dumezil next. However the library catalog doesn't give any indications of which English titles are actually part of Mythe and Epopee. So I'd like a list of titles and a recommended reading order (if there is one). Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff Then she was smoked, delicately. Mamaroneck Public Library She was delicately smoked. Mamaroneck, NY Delicately smoked was she. hhertzof@wlsmail.wls.lib.ny.us - _Arlene Sardine_ hhertzoff@worldnet.att.net by Chris Raschka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:19:59 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/whoareyou - --- GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/00 8:45:12 AM Pacific > Standard Time, allenw@io.com > writes: > > << Granted, Adam's "I was created to destroy life" > isn't very promising. > On the other hand, it's a valid self-analysis, > assuming that he was > created as a super-weapon. >> > > Well, not really. A weapon that destroys > everything indiscriminately isn't > much of a weapon. A weapon that considers anything > living to be its target > doesn't give your side any advantage over the other > side, not to mention the > problems that neutrals and innocent bystanders would > have. That is why I > groaned, "Oh, no, no thought has gone into this." > And since he was the point > of the whole Initiative thing, if no real thought > was put into Adam and his > purpose, no real thought was put into the Initiative > and its purpose. > Did Walsh ever even see Adam in a conscious state? I doubt she'd even tried to "program" him yet, and he's like Frankenstein's monster in that he's trying to figure out his role in the world. I think it is only speculation to say that the Initiative created him merely to "destroy all life", as he seems to think. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:30:28 -0800 From: marta grabien Subject: Re: b/whoareyou anyone notice that the knife used in Angel was identical to Faith's? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:38:57 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/whoareyou In a message dated 3/1/00 8:23:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, thuff_007@yahoo.com writes: << I think it is only speculation to say that the Initiative created him merely to "destroy all life", as he seems to think. >> True; it's unpromising, but maybe Joss is just playing with expectations again. I hope that this Initiative / Adam plotline turns out to be more thought- out than it appears at this point. It's still possible. But I am feeling pessimistic about it now. Gayle ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #52 ****************************