From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #48 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, February 28 2000 Volume 02 : Number 048 Today's Subjects: ----------------- o/re-posting ["Donald G. Keller" ] B/More dream/biblical/mythic imagery [Todd Huff ] Re: o/re-posting [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/thunder [GHighPine@aol.com] b / a prediction [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/thunder ["Susan J. Kroupa" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:19:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: o/re-posting Gayle: I thought about replying to your request individually, but there seem to be several good reasons to go ahead and post what I have to say to the whole list, so here goes. I'm not unalterably opposed to re-posting what I wrote (the dream- analysis, yes?) to another list, but I'm reluctant. First of all I'm curious to know just what this other list is (Buffy-related?). The other consideration is this (and I've had this same discussion with people on another list I'm on): if we make a distinction between "public" writing and "private" writing, my feeling is that this list (and my GEnie topic which preceded it) falls =just= on the "private" side, and re-posting what I write here to another list (or putting it up on a web page) falls =just= on the "public" side. And that makes me a little queasy. To put it another way, this list feels like a "workshop" situation (while re-posting or putting it on the Net feels like a "publication" situation); I feel like whatever wild stray thought crosses my mind I can post here, and maybe it'll strike sparks with someone else (or maybe not, which is valuable to know, too). There's a kind of a "journal" feel to it, as it were. And I also feel that what's going on here is more of a "discussion" than a "lecture" on my part, and if you examine the texts I'm posting you'll see I'm deliberately asking questions, speculating, etc., i.e. leaving openings for other participants to express an opinion. (Which is why it's a little disappointing to have long posts met with deafening silence sometimes, but that's life.) The other factor is that I feel all this stuff I'm posting here is very much work-in-progress; I feel a bit overwhelmed by all the ancillary material I've been reading, as though I'm only scratching its surface, and that as time goes on I'll have a better grasp of the material and what it says about =Buffy=. (For example, I'm still grappling with the alchemical image of the woman-embracing-the-serpent-in-the-grave, and have been trying for =weeks= to write something down about it.) And the dream-analysis stuff is another such case; it's feeling like it's going to be long enough to be a monograph all by itself (quite apart from the myth-pattern stuff, that is), and that there's a =lot= more to deal with as time goes on (I haven't even really started to deal with the 1st- and 2nd-season dreams, for example). And even what's been posted is scruffy and unfinished--as you can see from what I posted last night, I'm not done yet even with the Faith dreams, and I just noticed, as I reread the previous post to see how I felt about its being further disseminated, that I need to revise the statement about the thunder starting with the 2nd dream (when it appears in and around the 1st dream as well). (I =do= take it as a compliment that you feel what I'm doing is strong enough as it is to interest the "outside world"; this isn't about an inferiority complex about my writing in general. I know I can write this kind of expository prose, and I have every conviction that I'm on the right track with the material.) To sum up, I feel what I'm writing here is very much off-the-cuff, and not ready for prime time yet. (That applies even to the couple of science fiction convention lectures I've delivered, where I spoke pretty much extempore from notes rather than reading a finished paper.) Jennifer will probably tell me I'm afraid to finish anything, and she may be right, but there's so much interesting material to deal with that I keep getting distracted in all directions. But sending off "unfinished" stuff somewhere else isn't the solution. The other solution, of course, is to invite whomever you think might be interested to join =this= list, where I feel more secure that I'm talking to my friends. But I'm still willing to be convinced, so talk to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: B/More dream/biblical/mythic imagery To add to this wonderful foundation it occurs to me that Faith's wound in her first dream is the fabled "wound which will not heal", in the exact spot where Christ was pierced by a lance while on the cross. This leads somehow into Arthurian myth, which I am hardly familiar with at all (I'm sure somebody here will expand on this point), and then straight back to her feeling of being betrayed by Buffy, rather than the other way around. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:03:24 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: o/re-posting In a message dated 2/27/00 8:21:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, dgk@panix.com writes: << Gayle: I thought about replying to your request individually, but there seem to be several good reasons to go ahead and post what I have to say to the whole list, so here goes. I'm not unalterably opposed to re-posting what I wrote (the dream- analysis, yes?) to another list, but I'm reluctant. First of all I'm curious to know just what this other list is (Buffy-related?). >> Actually, the list I have in mind is a Genie-refugee list made up of former denizens of the BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (TV series) topic. They used to have long, in-depth discussions of BatB much like our BUFFY discussions here and in your topic, and some of them are BUFFY fans, and I really actually had a hidden agenda in my mind, to give them a sampling of what goes on over here so the BUFFY-literate folks over there would consider joining over here. << The other consideration is this (and I've had this same discussion with people on another list I'm on): if we make a distinction between "public" writing and "private" writing, my feeling is that this list (and my GEnie topic which preceded it) falls =just= on the "private" side, and re-posting what I write here to another list (or putting it up on a web page) falls =just= on the "public" side. And that makes me a little queasy. >> I see a difference between reposting on a list (which in this case, BTW, is private, invitation-only, and made up only of former Genie-ites, only about ten people who all know each other) and putting something on a web page. But I respect your points. << To put it another way, this list feels like a "workshop" situation (while re-posting or putting it on the Net feels like a "publication" situation); I feel like whatever wild stray thought crosses my mind I can post here, and maybe it'll strike sparks with someone else (or maybe not, which is valuable to know, too). There's a kind of a "journal" feel to it, as it were. And I also feel that what's going on here is more of a "discussion" than a "lecture" on my part, and if you examine the texts I'm posting you'll see I'm deliberately asking questions, speculating, etc., i.e. leaving openings for other participants to express an opinion. (Which is why it's a little disappointing to have long posts met with deafening silence sometimes, but that's life.) >> I know the feeling, since I wish there would be more response to my predictions. I think sometimes, re responses to your posts, that there is so much to digest and to comment on that I put it off till there is "time" to do it justice, and when does =that= ever happen..... (well, it does occasionally, but I understand your frustration not to get substantive responses to each long and well-thought-out post. And I have a feeling that just "Great post!" isn't enough -- you want responses with =content=. That's where the time problem comes in... but at least you know thatif we didn't appreciate and enjoy what you write, we wouldn't be here.) << The other factor is that I feel all this stuff I'm posting here is very much work-in-progress; I feel a bit overwhelmed by all the ancillary material I've been reading, as though I'm only scratching its surface, and that as time goes on I'll have a better grasp of the material and what it says about =Buffy=. Jennifer will probably tell me I'm afraid to finish anything, and she may be right, but there's so much interesting material to deal with that I keep getting distracted in all directions. >> Hm... does this mean that having us fellow BUFFY fans to share thoughts with is part of what influences you to keep your nose on the BUFFY trail and not go wandering off elsewhere? It's because of US??? Well, if that's so, cool, and you'd better put us all in the acknowledgements of the book you eventually write! :) << But sending off "unfinished" stuff somewhere else isn't the solution. The other solution, of course, is to invite whomever you think might be interested to join =this= list, where I feel more secure that I'm talking to my friends. But I'm still willing to be convinced, so talk to me. >> As I said, that was my hidden agenda. I've reposted some of my own prediction posts there, but thought that a sampling of what =else= they were missing would be a stronger lure. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:22:49 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/thunder In a message dated 2/26/00 9:59:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, dgk@panix.com writes: << Came across one little tidbit on page 221 of Jung's =Alchemical Studies=, that the Hopi Indians believed snakes to be "flashes of lightning auguring rain." Chalk up another signified for that snake. >> Yes, that is true (not that they believe snakes =are= lightning, but have a mystical symbolic connection with lightning). That is why they use live rattlesnakes in the rain dances, Susan, can you talk more about the Hopi snake / lightning connection? << And I got to thinking about the fact that Thor in Norse mythology and Indra in Hindu mythology are both not only warrior-gods but storm-gods, with weapons related to thunderbolts (cf. Zeus), and that one of my postulates is that these warrior-gods are the mythological underliers of the Slayers. So I'll suggest a symbolic series of snake = thunderbolt = stake = knife that applies to the second dream. (And note the "synchronicity" that SMG named her dog Thor.) >> That is very interesting and sounds right. (Back to my last letter, I think that when people don't comment it's because they may think they need to add some thoughts of substance. If you don't mind quickie reactions like the above when something in particular strikes the reader as sounding right -- which doesn't mean it doesn't all sound right, but you know what I mean, I hope -- then maybe you could offer an assurance that such content-less responses are okay.) << As for rain, there was the general sense that it =always= means renewal, crops growing, etc. etc.; but there was also the "see also: dew" in the various indices, which led me to alchemy again. >> Not that the "renewal" part is not obviously apropos, but I think that the imagery of "rain at a picnic" has more transparent significance. (As you say, dream imagery -- which to me includes all mythological and creative imagery -- can have multiple significances, sometimes seeming contradictory.) << "The falling dew is the portent of the divine birth now at hand...The black or unconscious state that resulted from the union of opposites reaches the nadir and a change sets in. The falling dew signals resuscitation and a new light: the ever deeper descent into the unconscious suddenly becomes illumination from above." (p. 294) And much more succinctly, Jung says in a footnote on p. 492 of =Mysterium Coniunctionis= "dew wakens the dead." >> I would have though dew to be too much of a reach from the sound of thunder, but these significances to dew seem so appropriate. << So the thunder signals the imminence of a change, and the rain signals the renewal of life. And Faith wakes up. >> Yeah! Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 14:00:52 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: b / a prediction It just occurred to me why, in terms of the Initiative plot arc, Faith's return just happened to be timed to happen NOW. Faith-as-Buffy probably will confirm Forrest el al's suspicions that Slayers are bad, unpredictable and need to be eliminated. Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:58:20 -0700 From: "Susan J. Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/thunder Gayle, I accidently sent this to you instead of the group, so please forgive the double copy. Hopis often use the same symbol for snake and for lightning, and the Acomas have a tale in which snakes actually rise up to the sky and become lightning. Lightning is a powerful fertility symbol for the Hopis, and symbolizes not only the male aspect of fertility (some say the penis while the rain is the semen and the earth is the receiving woman) but a regenerating force as well. There is a tale of Masauwu (a Hopi deity) who, after a protracted battle, "falls down as if dead" and is able to recover only with the fertilizing or regenerating power of lightning. Sue GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/26/00 9:59:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, dgk@panix.com > writes: > > << > Came across one little tidbit on page 221 of Jung's =Alchemical Studies=, > that the Hopi Indians believed snakes to be "flashes of lightning auguring > rain." Chalk up another signified for that snake. >> > > Yes, that is true (not that they believe snakes =are= lightning, but have a > mystical symbolic connection with lightning). That is why they use live > rattlesnakes in the rain dances, > > Susan, can you talk more about the Hopi snake / lightning connection? > > << > And I got to thinking about the fact that Thor in Norse mythology and > Indra in Hindu mythology are both not only warrior-gods but storm-gods, > with weapons related to thunderbolts (cf. Zeus), and that one of my > postulates is that these warrior-gods are the mythological underliers of > the Slayers. So I'll suggest a symbolic series of snake = thunderbolt = > stake = knife that applies to the second dream. (And note the > "synchronicity" that SMG named her dog Thor.) > >> > > That is very interesting and sounds right. > > (Back to my last letter, I think that when people don't comment it's > because they may think they need to add some thoughts of substance. If you > don't mind quickie reactions like the above when something in particular > strikes the reader as sounding right -- which doesn't mean it doesn't all > sound right, but you know what I mean, I hope -- then maybe you could offer > an assurance that such content-less responses are okay.) > > << > As for rain, there was the general sense that it =always= means renewal, > crops growing, etc. etc.; but there was also the "see also: dew" in the > various indices, which led me to alchemy again. > >> > > Not that the "renewal" part is not obviously apropos, but I think that the > imagery of "rain at a picnic" has more transparent significance. (As you > say, dream imagery -- which to me includes all mythological and creative > imagery -- can have multiple significances, sometimes seeming contradictory.) > > << > "The falling dew is the portent of the divine birth now at > hand...The black or unconscious state that resulted from the union > of opposites reaches the nadir and a change sets in. The falling dew > signals resuscitation and a new light: the ever deeper descent into > the unconscious suddenly becomes illumination from above." (p. 294) > > And much more succinctly, Jung says in a footnote on p. 492 of =Mysterium > Coniunctionis= "dew wakens the dead." > >> > > I would have though dew to be too much of a reach from the sound of > thunder, but these significances to dew seem so appropriate. > > << > So the thunder signals the imminence of a change, and the rain signals the > renewal of life. And Faith wakes up. > >> > > Yeah! > > Gayle ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #48 ****************************