From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #41 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, February 21 2000 Volume 02 : Number 041 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/comments2/19 [Dori ] Re: b/ new member [Dori ] Re: stillpt-digest V2 #40 ["Jennifer Stevenson" ] Re: b/comments2/19 [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:47:53 -0500 From: Dori Subject: Re: b/comments2/19 allenw said: >Perhaps some unholy combination of Ares and Aphrodite? Now =there's= a character I'd like to see... - -- Dori cleindor@cfw.com cleindori@rica.net - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Funny how things you think are black and white can go gray on you. A.G. Artis - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:49:04 -0500 From: Dori Subject: Re: b/ new member > So, Cleindori, comments on the recent developments? I knew those vitamins were trouble. Otherwise, I'm quite sure, "Woo-hoo! Shirtless Spike!" isn't what you're looking for here, so I'll have to think about it for a bit. Although this might be a good place to ask about charactertorture, and why it's so appealing... (Curtsey while you're thinking what to say, it saves time...) - -- Dori cleindor@cfw.com cleindori@rica.net - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Funny how things you think are black and white can go gray on you. A.G. Artis - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:06:19 -0600 From: "Jennifer Stevenson" Subject: Re: stillpt-digest V2 #40 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF7B8A.21BB75A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, you write, Jennifer: You might get a few laughs (or maybe the willies) from Jung's Psychology of the Transference. Here's a paragraph from the back cover copy: "The bond between analyst and patient is shown to be analogous to the kinship libido [remember, Jung's concept of the libido is much broader than Freud's] between the alchemist-adept and his 'mystic sister'--a link also found in the complicated kinship marriages of certain primitive societies [i.e. cross-cousin marriages]." And this is from Jung's introductory chapter: "Suddenly [Freud] asked me out of the blue, 'And what do you think about the transference?' I replied with the deepest conviction that it was the alpha and omega of the analytical method, whereupon he said, 'Then you have grasped the main thing.'" So the importance of the issue of the transference was one of the few things that Freud and Jung agreed on, after a while. This is typical of analysts, and certain kinds of therapists. They are MOST interested in themselves. How the client sees them, feels about them. How they affect the client. How the client affects them. They spend SO much time on this that the therapeutic relationship becomes a laboratory for THEIR convenience and solipsistic fascination. If the client can't get off on how the therapist feels about how they feel about the therapist, and how they feel about that, and so on ad sickinum, then they don't get much out of this do they? Plus it's inappropriate. INAPPROPRIATE. This is a word that came in late in the history of therapy, long after analysis fell out of fashion. The relationship consists of a long, slow stewing in which the therapist refuses to reveal himself to the client, expects the client to disembowel himself to the therapist, and the therapist gets secret major jerkoff points for every time the client tries to make the shrink talk about himself or his reactions to the client. In fact, that is SUPPOSED to become, in a highly developed anlaytical relationship, the entire focus of the therapy. Transference (how the client feels about the therapist) and counter-transference (how the therapist feels about the client) and counter-counter-transference (how the client reacts to the supposedly HIDDEN emotional responses of the therapist to the client) and counter counter counter rrrrrrRRRROWF. By the way: What is Enochian magic? I keep seeing books on it while I'm trolling through the "New Age" or "Mysticism" or "Magic" sections of bookstores; seems to relate to both John Dee and the Golden Dawn. Enochian magic is based on magical squares, with invocation of certain names and in a "language" of dubious pedigree. I forget who /i/n/v/e/n/t/e/d discovered the Enochian Tablets. Might have been Dee, or Dee with Edward Kelly. It's considered big juju among the sout'wes'side magicians I used to hang with in Chicago. I never got off on it, myself. Michael Maier must have had the balls of a Brahma bull. I don't blame him for backing down when the official heat came down. There was also the curious fact that the possessing demon in the last =3DAngel=3D was explicitly stated to be able to either manifest physically or possess a human "spiritually." Does this explain the demons that possess dead humans as vampires? Consistency of metaphysics is not a strong point of these shows. Don, are you asking the question in the context of the show? or the context of the history of demonology? In the latter, demons got (as you might expect) more and more refined in type, yea unto class, order, family, genus, and species, because the experts stepped in and got technical with it. Before it became an intellectual issue (a sure sign that belief is dying out) these technicalities were unknown, and a demon was what you pointed at when you said demon. It should be pointed out here that Jung doesn't make any strong distinction between dreams, (hypnagogic) visual impressions (as above)--"hypnagogic" being the borderland between being awake and asleep (cf. the opening of Proust's =3DSwann's Way=3D)--and outright fantasizing (which he refers to as "active imagination"); they are all to him ways of accessing images from the unconscious. This is consonant with the Medieval anatomy of the invisible body. See Carruthers. As I've said before, IMO their view of how we tick was more =3Dfunctional=3D than any one psychological theory of the 20th century. That's the whole of the dream. The interesting thing is, this is a dream that I've had for like 30 years, the same "frame" but different details; I'm always =3Dabout to=3D travel to somewhere I've been before but not for a while, where someone I know lives, and I'm concerned about proper preparation for the trip. Sometimes the dream extends to my getting there, but not usually. Like Gene Wolfe's THERE ARE DOORS. Gene said somewhere in print once that that entire book was about =3Dgetting the hero ready to begin his journey. >, a substantial number of the women >bankers wore theirs square in the small of their backs. Which struck >us as an odd and awkward position. It's not odd and awkward for women. There's sort of a natural hollow there where the beeper fits nicely and it feels balanced. Plus, if a woman wearing a skirted business suit wants to wear a beeper, it's the only place she can put the damned thing that doesn't make a bulge in her outline. Girls' clothing being so darned a-functional and, generally, pocketless. Speaking of which, do any of you recently former GEnie-ites know whether the mail server @genie.idt.net was scheduled to go away as of the past day or two? Every message that's gone to the list since yesterday has bounced back to me from David Bratman with a "host unknown" notation. I usually remove someone from one of my lists once I get three bounces from their address, but in this case I don't want to jump the gun. Meredith, I stayed on, if you can call it staying when my old Genie address wasn't forwarding. I was given a new "IDT" address and found that all that I was able to get in the way of mail was junk mail from IDT. Plus apparently they sold my address to some other junkmailers out-of-service. No private mail could go in or out of that address, I can tell you that. I cancelled my account in mid-January. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if IDT has just thrown in the towel. Sorry about the long post. I'm supposed to be going to work, which is why I'm not, of course. : ) - -Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:20:47 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/comments2/19 Hi! Dori commented: >>Perhaps some unholy combination of Ares and Aphrodite? > >Now =there's= a character I'd like to see... I can't see how that could possibly happen, though ... wouldn't a combination of the Goddess of Love and the God of War cancel one another out? :) While we're sort of off-topic on the Warrior Princess front, I thought I'd mention that this afternoon while in Chicago I attended the play _Xena Live!_, which is a fully sanctioned parody of the TV show (though the producers themselves have said it's more of an homage than a parody, and I'd have to agree - it was side-splittingly funny throughout, but never once made a mockery of the show). One of the characters they brought in from outside the Xenaverse was Muffy The Amazon Layer, who bursts onstage to the final flourish from the _Buffy_ theme song and turns out to be a manifestation of Xena's insecurities WRT Gabrielle's feelings for her (did I mention that in this play the "subtext" was very much "main"? :). Muffy and Xena have a spectacular fight over Gabrielle, at the end of which Gabrielle finally sends her on her way with "but I'm not your destiny! Your destiny is to slay vampires on the WB! You'll be even trendier than we are and you'll be a big hit! Really!" At which point Muffy turns to one of her Amazon hangers-on, says "Come on, Willow" and exits stage right, sharpening one of her fighting sticks as she goes. It was an absolute stitch. :) +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #41 ****************************