From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V2 #19 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, January 27 2000 Volume 02 : Number 019 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/angel questions [allenw ] b/ so where are we now [GHighPine@aol.com] Re: b/ so where are we now ["David S. Bratman" ] Re: b/ so where are we now ["Susan J. Kroupa" ] Re: b/Giles & Cordelia [allenw ] Re: b/ so where are we now [meredith ] Re: b/ so where are we now [GHighPine@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:17:31 -0600 (EST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/angel questions On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, meredith wrote: > Hi! > > If I may, a few stoopid questions about where Angel is at now: I haven't > been motivated to watch in several weeks, so now I'm *really* lost. > > -- What happened to Doyle?! Died heroically saving a group of half-breed demons from fascist demonic purists. Apparently evaporated by a big humanity-dissolving bomb thingy. > > -- What the hell is Wesley doing there?!? Got fired by the Coucil for losing two (!) Slayers. Trying to drum up business as a "Rogue Demon Hunter." Annoying, but getting slightly more competent. > -- How did Cordelia get stuck with Doyle's visions? He kissed her as he was dying heroically. The PTB (Powers That Be - vague supernatural entities) apparently didn't want Angel to lose his beeper. > -- Why does she have a ghost in her apartment, and who is it (is it Doyle)? > Not Doyle, Dennis (a.k.a. Phantom Dennis). She found this great cheap apartment; only catch is it was haunted by two ghosts. They drove off one and made friends with the other; hence the invisible roommate. -Allen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:34:58 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: b/ so where are we now Okay, BUFFY comments. (A phone call interrupted ANGEL so I just let it tape and haven't watched it yet.) First, before getting to the story, ASH has seemed sick and lacking in vitality these past two episodes. I hope that it is only a transient problem like the flu, but it's hard to tell since he hasn't had much screen time of late. It fit with the discouragement he was supposed to be feeling in the story, but I don't think that was all acting. Okay. Last night's ep. By itself, it seems like one of the weaker eps, amusing in a lightweight way. But let's look at the arc here. (Wish I had a handy list, with dates, of last season's eps, because I seem to remember that right before Feb sweeps last year, right before the murder of Finch, the Faith arc seemed to be going nowhere.) Where are we? Walsh is a relatively sympathetic character. Buffy and Walsh are getting along more or less. Buffy and the Initiative are creating an alliance. Has anyone noticed that -- if we take all this at face value -- there is NO season villain this season? (But, then again, Faith didn't emerge as season villain until Feb sweeps.) If we take the situation at face value, the story is really in the doldrums. There is not only no season villain, there is no important conflict of any kind at the moment. And yet, there were details, treated very casually and unimportantly, that I believe are laying the groundwork for something. Giles' hatred of (and jealousy of) Walsh will be, I believe, a key element in what emerges. In fact, maybe this is how the Giles arc will emerge. (Interesting that last summer in SFRT2 I speculated that the Giles arc -- which of course is about the father / daughter relationship with Buffy -- would center around the relationship with Joyce. It turns out that a different mother figure, one who hadn't been introduced at the time, becomes the source of conflict.) (As David observed, Walsh's remarks about the father figure was not intended as an insult to Giles; she had no idea about Giles' and Buffy's relationship. But Giles took her remark as though it were an intentional jab at his failure as a father figure.) Also, Walsh's remarks about Buffy's lack of discipline are key. I had predicted before that IF Buffy and the Initiative ever tried to form an alliance, Walsh and co would try to control her, and the issue of control would come to the forefront. I believe that that is what is going to happen, tying in with the theme of "graduation" from the control of the Watchers' Council last year. I believe that the scenes between Giles and Walsh and the scene in which Walsh remarks on Buffy's lack of discipline will prove to be the most significant scenes in this episode, in terms of foreshadowing the arc. (A bit the way, viewed in retrospect, the Faith arc can be seen to be full of foreshadowing that hardly seemed significant at the time -- for example, Faith's reaction when she found out that Buffy hadn't told her about Angel's return.) When conflicts arise between Buffy and the Initiative, I predict that it will lead to crises between Buffy and Riley. Their relationship is just too darn smooth right now. Joss practices what I call the "bow and arrow" method. You pull the bowstring back to make the arrow go with more force. One little example of this was when Walsh apparently didn't know what werewolves were -- to try to lull us into thinking she knew nothing about supernatural things, right before the ep in which her connection with the Initiative was revealed. That ploy didn't fool me, because I am on to Joss and every time he seems to be pulling our expectations in one direction, I am suspicious. Now he seems to be pulling our expectations in the direction of -- Riley's one of the gang and a workable alliance is being developed with the Initiative. Oooooooooo-kay. Two other key bits of info: Riley has KILLED demons under Initiative auspices, so they are not just about the experiments. And the Initiative has a connection to the US military, so it is not completely independent or without oversight of some sort. Hey, it's no fun to make predictions and speculations if other people don't comment! Or respond with speculations of your own! Gayle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:39:56 -0500 (EST) From: "David S. Bratman" Subject: Re: b/ so where are we now On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > Okay. Last night's ep. By itself, it seems like one of the weaker eps, > amusing in a lightweight way. But let's look at the arc here. (Wish I had a > handy list, with dates, of last season's eps, because I seem to remember that > right before Feb sweeps last year, right before the murder of Finch, the > Faith arc seemed to be going nowhere.) Only if one considers (apparent) harmony to be nowhere. > Where are we? Walsh is a relatively sympathetic character. Kind of surprising, that. Giles has caught Buffy's dislike of her, which Buffy herself seems to be free of at the moment -- but I don't recall her having talked much about Walsh since the start of "Hush": she may still be floundering away in the classroom for all we know. > Has anyone noticed that -- if we take all this at face value -- there is > NO season villain this season? > > (But, then again, Faith didn't emerge as season villain until Feb sweeps.) But by that time, we already knew (or thought we knew) who the season villain was: the Mayor. Maybe we're being faked out this time and there is no over-riding villain. > (As David observed, Walsh's remarks about the father figure was not > intended as an insult to Giles; she had no idea about Giles' and Buffy's > relationship. But Giles took her remark as though it were an intentional jab > at his failure as a father figure.) Which is really sad, since it seemed from last season as if Giles was a very good father figure. Were we wrong? No, I don't think there's too much significance in Walsh's off-the-cuff psychoanalysis of Buffy's problems. It's just one more burden to pour on poor Giles. (Now that Oz is gone, I'm identifying even more with Giles.) > Also, Walsh's remarks about Buffy's lack of discipline are key. I had > predicted before that IF Buffy and the Initiative ever tried to form an > alliance, Walsh and co would try to control her, and the issue of control > would come to the forefront. I believe that that is what is going to happen, > tying in with the theme of "graduation" from the control of the Watchers' > Council last year. Ooh, good one. Excellent point, and I think you're right. Walsh's control vs. Buffy's free spirit (remember her last remarks to Wesley), with Riley caught in the middle. Notice how already he's split, even using two quite different voices for his two personae: mighty commando by night, awkward TA and boyfriend by day. He's also caught in between in another sense: as a demon-hunter, to Walsh he's apparently her top operative, but to Buffy he's a klutz whose saving graces are 1) he's not quite as klutzy as Wesley was, and 2) his network (spy capacity, army, etc). DB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:50:56 -0700 From: "Susan J. Kroupa" Subject: Re: b/ so where are we now I pretty much agree with you, Gayle, though I wouldn't call Walsh sympathetic yet--that closing scene insinuates that there's more to her than we know, and she's never really seemed sympathetic to me. I didn't feel the ep. was lightweight either because of the two scenes you mentioned-- the Giles/Walsh antagonism, and because of the remark from Walsh about Buffy needing discipline--there's only grief to come from trying to control Buffy. To me, the other significant part of the episode was that (if I heard it right?) Willow lied when she told Buffy about working the rose spell--she said she had been alone. Sue GHighPine@aol.com wrote: > > Okay, BUFFY comments. (A phone call interrupted ANGEL so I just let it > tape and haven't watched it yet.) First, before getting to the story, ASH > has seemed sick and lacking in vitality these past two episodes. I hope that > it is only a transient problem like the flu, but it's hard to tell since he > hasn't had much screen time of late. It fit with the discouragement he was > supposed to be feeling in the story, but I don't think that was all acting. > > Okay. Last night's ep. By itself, it seems like one of the weaker eps, > amusing in a lightweight way. But let's look at the arc here. (Wish I had a > handy list, with dates, of last season's eps, because I seem to remember that > right before Feb sweeps last year, right before the murder of Finch, the > Faith arc seemed to be going nowhere.) > > Where are we? Walsh is a relatively sympathetic character. Buffy and > Walsh are getting along more or less. Buffy and the Initiative are creating > an alliance. > > Has anyone noticed that -- if we take all this at face value -- there is > NO season villain this season? > > (But, then again, Faith didn't emerge as season villain until Feb sweeps.) > > If we take the situation at face value, the story is really in the > doldrums. There is not only no season villain, there is no important > conflict of any kind at the moment. > > And yet, there were details, treated very casually and unimportantly, that > I believe are laying the groundwork for something. > > Giles' hatred of (and jealousy of) Walsh will be, I believe, a key element > in what emerges. In fact, maybe this is how the Giles arc will emerge. > (Interesting that last summer in SFRT2 I speculated that the Giles arc -- > which of course is about the father / daughter relationship with Buffy -- > would center around the relationship with Joyce. It turns out that a > different mother figure, one who hadn't been introduced at the time, becomes > the source of conflict.) > > (As David observed, Walsh's remarks about the father figure was not > intended as an insult to Giles; she had no idea about Giles' and Buffy's > relationship. But Giles took her remark as though it were an intentional jab > at his failure as a father figure.) > > Also, Walsh's remarks about Buffy's lack of discipline are key. I had > predicted before that IF Buffy and the Initiative ever tried to form an > alliance, Walsh and co would try to control her, and the issue of control > would come to the forefront. I believe that that is what is going to happen, > tying in with the theme of "graduation" from the control of the Watchers' > Council last year. > > I believe that the scenes between Giles and Walsh and the scene in which > Walsh remarks on Buffy's lack of discipline will prove to be the most > significant scenes in this episode, in terms of foreshadowing the arc. (A > bit the way, viewed in retrospect, the Faith arc can be seen to be full of > foreshadowing that hardly seemed significant at the time -- for example, > Faith's reaction when she found out that Buffy hadn't told her about Angel's > return.) > > When conflicts arise between Buffy and the Initiative, I predict that it > will lead to crises between Buffy and Riley. Their relationship is just too > darn smooth right now. > > Joss practices what I call the "bow and arrow" method. You pull the > bowstring back to make the arrow go with more force. One little example of > this was when Walsh apparently didn't know what werewolves were -- to try to > lull us into thinking she knew nothing about supernatural things, right > before the ep in which her connection with the Initiative was revealed. That > ploy didn't fool me, because I am on to Joss and every time he seems to be > pulling our expectations in one direction, I am suspicious. > > Now he seems to be pulling our expectations in the direction of -- Riley's > one of the gang and a workable alliance is being developed with the > Initiative. Oooooooooo-kay. > > Two other key bits of info: Riley has KILLED demons under Initiative > auspices, so they are not just about the experiments. And the Initiative has > a connection to the US military, so it is not completely independent or > without oversight of some sort. > > Hey, it's no fun to make predictions and speculations if other people > don't comment! Or respond with speculations of your own! > > Gayle > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:28:35 -0600 (EST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/Giles & Cordelia Wesley seemed, not only competent, but non-whiney this episode. I approve. Perhaps Room 314 is the big operant-condition torture chamber for demons and vampires? Two other notes: 1: Where's Spike? Did the Initiative re-take him? 2: Why is Willow lying about where and with whom she did the Rose spell (and has she even mentioned Tara to Buffy?)? Could it be: A: Guilt or fear, conscious or otherwise? B: The result of some spell? C: A conscious decision to keep Tara out of danger by keeping her away from the Scooby Gang? Allen W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:40:15 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/ so where are we now Hi! First, thanks to all who answered my questions re Angel. From the six responses I got, I was able to piece together pretty much everything and I don't feel a need to catch up with those episodes now. Thanks. :) Gayle commented: >First, before getting to the story, ASH >has seemed sick and lacking in vitality these past two episodes. I hope that >it is only a transient problem like the flu, but it's hard to tell since he >hasn't had much screen time of late. I noticed that last week too -- probably just a cold. > Where are we? Walsh is a relatively sympathetic character. Buffy and >Walsh are getting along more or less. When did that happen?! When did Buffy stop being scared of her, and why does she suddenly think Walsh is so cool? Did I miss something here? > Has anyone noticed that -- if we take all this at face value -- there is >NO season villain this season? Yet. For one, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Mr. Rayne (how much do you want to bet he's somewhere behind that door labeled "314" right now?). For another, it's occurred to me that Willow's comment about feeling a "negative energy" when she and Tara were moving the rose might not have been about Ethan Rayne at all. Nothing whatsoever was mentioned or shown to indicate that Rayne had anything to do with the rose missile effect. I think that comment was definitely foreshadowing *something*. > Two other key bits of info: Riley has KILLED demons under Initiative >auspices, so they are not just about the experiments. And the Initiative has >a connection to the US military, so it is not completely independent or >without oversight of some sort. Yeah. "The US Military." What the hell is *that* supposed to mean? I laughed out loud when Riley made that pronouncement. :) My personal theory about why Willow lied to Buffy about where she was is because there's a conversation she needs to have with herself about why she was hanging out with Tara first, and she's not ready to do that yet. I've a feeling Tara is going to figure in upcoming things in a major way. (Something about that scene bugged me ... there was nothing going on but the business of doing the spell, and Willow launched them into it before Tara even knew what they were doing! How can you expect someone to work a spell with you if you don't tell them what the spell is? There was just something wrong with that whole situation.) +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:07:31 EST From: GHighPine@aol.com Subject: Re: b/ so where are we now In a message dated 1/26/00 4:43:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, dbratman@genie.idt.net writes: << Only if one considers (apparent) harmony to be nowhere. >> Absolutely. When you are talking about drama. "Drama is conflict" is a truism in dramatic writing. (Not necessarily interpersonal conflict -- conflict with the elements, etc., is dramatic conflict -- but if Buffy and Riley continue to sail peacefully along, Buffy does well in college, nobody has any problems -- dramatically, we are nowhere.) << > Has anyone noticed that -- if we take all this at face value -- there is > NO season villain this season? > > (But, then again, Faith didn't emerge as season villain until Feb sweeps.) But by that time, we already knew (or thought we knew) who the season villain was: the Mayor. Maybe we're being faked out this time and there is no over-riding villain. >> I don't believe that, though -- that there is no overriding villain. I do believe that we are being faked out by the apparent absence of a season villain. I also believe that the "season villain" this season will not be a clear-cut evil villain -- more like a "season adversary." << > (As David observed, Walsh's remarks about the father figure was not > intended as an insult to Giles; she had no idea about Giles' and Buffy's > relationship. But Giles took her remark as though it were an intentional jab > at his failure as a father figure.) Which is really sad, since it seemed from last season as if Giles was a very good father figure. Were we wrong? No, I don't think there's too much significance in Walsh's off-the-cuff psychoanalysis of Buffy's problems. It's just one more burden to pour on poor Giles. >> I think that it is very significant =because= it is a burden put on poor Giles. Walsh's remarks hit a nerve that was already exposed. I believe that this will turn out to be related to the central theme of the arc. The obvious thing to anticipate from the setup in G1 would have been some sort of retaliation from the Watchers' Council. I believe that we will see some repercussions from that direction, but that won't be the core of the arc that is developing. The relationship itself is what was being set up as the core of the arc. Gayle ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V2 #19 ****************************