From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V12 #430 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Thursday, March 21 2013 Volume 12 : Number 430 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill [Howie ] Re: [RS] Which war? [Chris Foxwell ] [RS] Which war? [Norman Johnson ] Re: [RS] Casting RS Characters [Carol Love ] Re: [RS] Which war? ["Kevin B. Pease" ] [RS] Of cleverness and climbing hills [jimcolbert@aol.com] Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill [Chris Foxwell ] Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill [Chris Foxwell ] Re: [RS] Which war? [Carol Love ] Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill ["Kevin B. Pease" ] Re: [RS] Of cleverness and climbing hills [Chris Foxwell ] Re: [RS] Casting RS characters [Carol Love ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:25:30 -0400 From: Howie Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill At 11:08 AM 3/20/2013, you wrote: > > Further, it lends (in my opinion) a more tragic > > *and yet less morbid* air to the song if the place where their "sad > > farewell" occurred just happened to be named Reunion Hill. I mean...damn. > > Ouch. And how much more poignant would the widow's hope be if it were for a > > reunion to be staged at a place *previously* named Reunion Hill? > > >Sort of my point... it just happened to be named Reunion Hill? Come on.... >I'd rather go with the permutation where she also named Indian Boulder. > >Again, "Reunion Hill" would have to have such a specific meaning that I >find it extremely unlikely it was named previously for some "reunion" event >*and* this is the place where her musing of a possibly reunion occurs. Of >course, maybe she picked it *because* of it's name. Ugh. Hey, it's obvious: Reunion, Colorado is about a half-hour southeast of Boulder! (What was the question, again?) - -Howie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:34:27 +0300 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Which war? On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Rongrittz wrote: > A joke. A reference to the overproduced "Royal Canadian Fife & Drum > Oompah Marching Band Halftime Show, Featuring Jay-Z on Digeridoo" studio > version. > > On Mar 21, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Chris Foxwell wrote: > > ...okay, that went about a mile over my head. Which is appropriate, given the context. "Spiral higher still" indeed. - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:43:06 -0400 From: Norman Johnson Subject: [RS] Which war? I also think the names predate her husband leaving for war. But I wonder.. Why do we think it's the American Civil War? Could it be the Revolutionary War? The French and Indian War? The latter would be an interesting tie in with Richard's cover of Acadian Driftwood (one of my favorites). Norman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:33:23 -0400 From: Carol Love Subject: Re: [RS] Casting RS Characters Dave McKay wrote: > Oh, Carol! Casting a Brit as a Hollywood villain is so passi! :-) > (They) play bad guys in Hollywood movies because of the Revolutionary War. ... (They) play bad guys. Take The Empire Strikes Back from the Star Wars trilogy. The Death Star, just full of British actors opening doors and going, "Oh, l'm... Oh." "What is it, Lieutenant Sebastian?" "It's just the rebels, sir. They're here." "My God, man. "Do they want tea?" "I think they're after something more than that, sir. "I don't know what it is but they've brought a flag." "Damn, that's dashed cunning of them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:38:34 -0400 From: "Kevin B. Pease" Subject: Re: [RS] Which war? For me, the passage that suggests the Civil War is, "even now, I find their things..." Given the relative death tolls of the Revolution (~30k American & British combined, if I recall correctly) and the Civil War (~650k), I've always felt that commonly finding these sorts of personal effects "ten years since that ragged army" passed through, the number of wounded & dead soldiers involved would have to be enormous to leave that long-lasting a mark in a single passage across her fields. It's certainly possible to interpret it against wars in the colonial era, but the Civil War just feels like the right time frame to me. Kevin On Mar 20, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Norman Johnson wrote: > I also think the names predate her husband leaving for war. > > But I wonder.. Why do we think it's the American Civil War? > > Could it be the Revolutionary War? The French and Indian War? The latter would be an interesting tie in with Richard's cover of Acadian Driftwood (one of my favorites). > > Norman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:07:36 -0400 (EDT) From: jimcolbert@aol.com Subject: [RS] Of cleverness and climbing hills Well, I voted on FB for Reunion Hill already. But just wanted to add, I simply can't identify with, or enjoy Transit the way I can with the loss and longing expressed in Reunion Hill, personally. I think RH is a nearly perfectly crafted song, although the original studio version is probably my least favorite of the takes of it by Richard that I have. Reunion Hill resonates with me; Transit does not and never has. (And yes, I have done that drive many many times, so it's not like the landscape is foreign to me.) I do like the description that there's too much going on in the song. While I wouldn't say I always skip over it, I would say I often do. I don't mind it live, it just doesn't do that much for me. "Clever" to me is not always a positive, personally. (I do make an exception for Greg Klyma's "Good Work," which I just find, well... clever!) But that's just me! Your mileage may vary. - -Jim C Transit. I'm actually surprised by how many votes are going for Reunion Hill, and how many people say they like Transit, but they skip it when it comes on. I think Reunion Hill is a beautiful song. It's poignant, a touching story, strong voice (of a woman, no less, as Richard does so well), and I love how it begins and ends with the same line. But Transit is clever. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:55:59 +0300 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Laurence Krulik wrote: > We can agree to disagree here. Indian Boulder sounds like a more > "standard" name to me and just a place which has always been in her > community. Next time someone has Richard's ear, can you ask him? > I've never really considered this point before, but I feel that the song works most powerfully if both names, Indian Boulder and Reunion Hill, predate the widow and have nothing whatsoever to do with her or her loss. As we've already discussed, no actual (physical) "reunion" occurs in the song, and it would be kind of a painful joke on herself for the widow to name the rock after something that she desperately longed for but which never happened. This is not an impossible scenario, of course. Though it would cast the song in a more morbid tint. Surely part of the reason that the widow hasn't returned to Reunion Hill in a long time (as previously discussed) is because its very name and the now-dead hopes it conjures are too painful for her; obviously this conjuring would occur regardless of where the Hill got its name, but how much more of a sick joke on herself would it be if she was the one who named it? Not impossible, but certainly morbid and...sick, dirty, in a way. This song is oozing sorrow, but to my ear it is all "clean" sorrow: a widow's love for her dead husband, and her memories of hoping for his return. So this interpretation seems less likely to me than the simpler, "cleaner" interpretation, which is that the Hill, like the Boulder, bears the name of some long-ago event. Clearly this is a place where landmarks have names (as Indian Boulder indicates), so it's perfectly reasonable that the Hill would have one, like the Boulder. Further, it lends (in my opinion) a more tragic *and yet less morbid* air to the song if the place where their "sad farewell" occurred just happened to be named Reunion Hill. I mean...damn. Ouch. And how much more poignant would the widow's hope be if it were for a reunion to be staged at a place *previously* named Reunion Hill? A name bestowed by history--"perhaps destiny?", you can hear her thinking--rather than by her own longing? Imagine her temptation to interpret the name as divine validation of her hopes. There is tragedy aplenty in that view, but none of it is of the "sick" or morbid variety. Or so it seems to me. Finally, it just seems more Occam-friendly to take this interpretation of the names. It seems pointlessly complicated for Richard to toss two similar landmark names at us, in consecutive lyrics, with the idea that one is historical while the other is not. Again, not an impossible thing, just less likely in my opinion. Chris - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 13:14:13 -0400 From: "Michael & Linda Marmer" Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill Carrie, I was sort of kidding with you. No worries. It was funny. Mike oops! forgot to remove. carrie Lincoln used the internet? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:32:07 -0700 From: ronsfolkchords@cox.net Subject: Re: [RS] Which war? >> Revolutionary-War-era campaigns typically conjure fifes and drums. << Just like in the studio version. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:19:51 +0000 From: Dave McKay Subject: Re: [RS] Casting RS Characters Carol wrote: > Dave McKay wrote: > > > Ray Liotta as the narrator of By Now. > > ....No, Sir Anthony Hopkins Oh, Carol! Casting a Brit as a Hollywood villain is so passi! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:09:16 +0300 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Laurence Krulik wrote: > Sort of my point... it just happened to be named Reunion Hill? Come on.... > I'd rather go with the permutation where she also named Indian Boulder. > > Again, "Reunion Hill" would have to have such a specific meaning that I > find it extremely unlikely it was named previously for some "reunion" event > *and* this is the place where her musing of a possibly reunion occurs. Of > course, maybe she picked it *because* of it's name. Ugh. > Eh, well. Agree to disagree, as you said earlier. To me, greater power, and pathos, and tragedy, are created when the even happens to occur at a place named for a (previous) reunion. As I said, I hadn't thought about this previously, but it feels to me that some of the song's power is sapped if the widow herself named the Hill. Where you see disruptive coincidence, I see stirring tragedy. /shrug Plus it just doesn't seem all that unlikely a coincidence. It's coincidental, surely, but it's exactly that kind of quirky thing that happens. When I was in college, the most popular bar and social venue was located on Water Street...and the bar was flooded during my senior year and had to be closed. (The "water" in the street name referenced a nearby creek, and had nothing to do with the events of the flood.) That kind of thing happens. Seems pretty natural that a name as simultaneously vague and evocative as "Reunion Hill" would wind up being the stage for multiple partings and unions throughout history, as the result of both coincidence and conscious choice. Just like any other place anywhere, with or without a particular name. - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:49:28 -0700 From: gina Subject: Re: [RS] Of cleverness and climbing hills >> "Clever" to me is not always a positive, personally. > > I totally agree re: "clever". It can be a backhanded compliment, sometimes. Curious. Clever is an ultimate in compliments in my book. ;) I've never heard it used negatively -- or maybe I just never have used it that way. To me, it's a word that encompasses many others: brilliant, ingenious, unique, deep. Out of curiosity, I looked up the word in four different dictionaries. The most complete set of definitions came from Dictionary.com: clev7er 1. mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able. 2. superficially skillful, witty, or original in character or construction; facile: It was an amusing, clever play, but of no lasting value. 3. showing inventiveness or originality; ingenious: His clever device was the first to solve the problem. 4. adroit with the hands or body; dexterous or nimble. 5. Older Use. 1. suitable; convenient; satisfactory. 2. good-natured. 3. handsome. 4. in good health. So I think that definition #2 is what's being referred to above, but I'm using definition #3. What is it they say? Different strokes for different folks? Of course, too much cleverness can become overwhelming. As Oscar Wilde wrote: ALGERNON: All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That's his. JACK: Is that clever? ALGERNON: It is perfectly phrased! and quite as true as any observation in civilized life should be. JACK: I am sick to death of cleverness. Everybody is clever now-a-days. You can't go anywhere without meeting clever people. The thing has become an absolute public nuisance. I wish to goodness we had a few fools left. ALGERNON: We have. JACK: I should extremely like to meet them. What do they talk about? ALGERNON: The fools? Oh! about the clever people, of course. JACK: What fools! Of course, I'd say Wilde is the epitome of cleverness. Brilliant, original, intriguing, and just on the edge of annoying. - -- ******************************* "and all i want is something i can write about, all i want is something i can cry about..." - -n.f. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:05:53 -0400 From: Carol Love Subject: Re: [RS] Which war? I had always thought it was the Civil War, and just this week noticed that nothing in the song indicates that. I see a kind of Cold Mountain situation and even have assumed that the widow is from the South. Perhaps that's just because I think being on the losing side adds more to the tragedy. Does she give "bread and brandy" to advancing, retreating or troops coming home?? ~ Carol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:32:19 -0400 From: "Kevin B. Pease" Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill Here's my take on the naming of Reunion Hill: In a Civil War era setting, travel would have been largely on foot/horseback on the roads. And there would have probably been only a few major roads into & out of the town where the narrator lives, too. It's never struck me as that extraordinary that a hill overlooking the main road in & out of town might have acquired that nickname - it's the place where people would have had the best view of people approaching on the road, and the place where numerous "reunions" would have occurred as a result. In a modern setting, it would seem anachronistic or downright nonsensical - after all, you don't watch for your loved ones' return home on a hill overlooking the road anymore, you wait in Baggage Claim, or the Greyhound station, or the Amtrak station. Or you just wait for them to turn into your driveway. (Note that "Reunion Terminal B (International Arrivals)" would make a *terrible* tongue-twister of a song title.) In terms of how it acquired the name, consider that most of the adult male population of your town marching off to war would be a pretty damn significant event, and the return of the survivors would be, too - enough so that that hill might have acquired the nickname as a result of those events. I imagine the narrator waiting with a crowd on the hill, all excited to see their husbands, sons, fathers, and brothers finally returning home - and then I imagine the narrator searching in vain for her husband's face in the crowd of returning men. The hill's name would become, for her, a reminder of loss - the fact that the reunion she's been waiting for hasn't (and will never) come. But she keeps "haunting" Reunion Hill anyway, because it's the place where she last saw her husband as he left, and where some stubborn part of her refuses to accept that he's really gone - that if she keeps going back, someday he'll show up and it'll turn out to be some sort of giant mistake that kept him away so long. As far as "real places" with the name - a little messing on Google Maps turns up two roads named "Reunion Hill Lane," both in western North Carolina (Cheoah and Black Mountain). I'd guess that either there's a developer building homes down there who really likes Richard's music, and so is naming streets after his songs, or there actually are/were places named "Reunion Hill" that gave those lanes their names. (For what it's worth, my money's on the second - I doubt that those are the literal locations of the song, but I'd bet they acquired their names by virtue of offering the best view of people approaching the particular communities that named them.) Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:01:29 +0300 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Which war? On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Norman Johnson wrote: > I also think the names predate her husband leaving for war. > > But I wonder.. Why do we think it's the American Civil War? > > Could it be the Revolutionary War? The French and Indian War? The latter > would be an interesting tie in with Richard's cover of Acadian Driftwood > (one of my favorites). > I've just always heard the song described as being about a "Civil War widow". I can't identify any single source; just, that's what I always seem to see and hear. Additionally, maybe folks are conflating it with "Arrowhead"? I think part of the beauty of the song is that it doesn't matter which war it is. Just like in "You Stay Here", which has been tied (by Richard?) to Kosovo, the sentiments and power of the song ring true regardless of which conflict it is. - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 00:33:59 +0300 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Of cleverness and climbing hills On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:07 AM, wrote: > "Clever" to me is not always a positive, personally. (I do make an > exception > for Greg Klyma's "Good Work," which I just find, well... clever!) > I totally agree re: "clever". It can be a backhanded compliment, sometimes. Cleverness is not a bad thing, but it's also distinctly less good than other superlatives that tend to be thrown around when art is described--"brilliant", "moving", "deep", etc.--and the decision not to use such words is often intended, and noted. (Not always, of course.) I remember discussing this various thing with Carsie Blanton fans at Club Passim years ago. I would not use "clever" to describe "Transit". Maybe for "Cancion Sencilla", though its application there would not be backhanded (coming from me at least), since that song shines most brightly to me in ways other than its cleverness. Chris - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:08:07 -0400 From: Laurence Krulik Subject: Re: [RS] Indian Boulder & Reunion Hill > Further, it lends (in my opinion) a more tragic > *and yet less morbid* air to the song if the place where their "sad > farewell" occurred just happened to be named Reunion Hill. I mean...damn. > Ouch. And how much more poignant would the widow's hope be if it were for a > reunion to be staged at a place *previously* named Reunion Hill? Sort of my point... it just happened to be named Reunion Hill? Come on.... I'd rather go with the permutation where she also named Indian Boulder. Again, "Reunion Hill" would have to have such a specific meaning that I find it extremely unlikely it was named previously for some "reunion" event *and* this is the place where her musing of a possibly reunion occurs. Of course, maybe she picked it *because* of it's name. Ugh. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:26:40 -0700 From: Nancy Scott Subject: Re: [RS] Final vote Yep, final vote: Transit. I love Reunion Hill as well, but I already voted for it once, and Transit has long been a favorite of mine, definitely in my top 3 RS songs. In fact, my top three are Transit, RH, and Wisteria, in order. So I am a happy voter. :)) I've really enjoyed all this "Much Madness" ~ what a fun idea-- thanks, Ron and everyone, for reconnecting me with all of RS's amazing music, and engaging interesting conversations about the songs. Now, I'm back to waiting not-so-patiently for Richard to announce his west coast tour~~ - -nancy > I have to vote for Transit. It has always been one of my top 5 RS songs. I > love the story he weaves and the vivid imagery. Plus I have a thing for > constructed societies like prisons and convents. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:41:55 -0400 From: Carol Love Subject: Re: [RS] Casting RS characters Dave McKay wrote: > Ray Liotta as the narrator of By Now. ....No, Sir Anthony Hopkins ~ Carol ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V12 #430 ************************************