From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V9 #59 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Monday, April 16 2007 Volume 09 : Number 059 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] sleeping dogs [Roxylee ] [RS] Re: your comments about "fleur" discussions [Em ] [RS] RE: Nora ["Emma Wright" ] [RS] mongrel dogs who preach ["Norman Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:20:25 -0400 From: Roxylee Subject: [RS] sleeping dogs > "Oh yeh, best let that mongrel lie!!! Puleeze!" > carrie in kc Yes, let's not mention the dog in Beyond the Iron Gate. Just kidding!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:01:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: [RS] Re: your comments about "fleur" discussions I have to say this makes me laugh! but in a good way. I like my own understanding of it. Which is mostly visual, btw. I mostly just "see" stuff. But if it were a painting it would need to somehow span a period, stylistically, from before there was "perspective" in drawing, to the advent of perspective. It needs a receeding checkerboard floor. Lots of sky blue (and for the eggs) and I detect baroque gold. Although that's confusing to me, as lots of the roots seem much more ancient. Gotta see if I can get in the archives. I think Ron explained it to me once - will have to go poke around at smoe. Thanks for the smiles, I guess a "fleur de lis" thread on a Shindell list is like an oil thread on a vintage motorcycle list, something to be feared and possibly banned. Well not "feared", but perhaps kept at arm's length... :) Em John wrote: > I think we can safely say Yes...and then some! Em, you'll get a > dissection > if you look in the archives here, but it won't be concise one. > and Chris wrote: > Yeah, I'm scared to attempt even a cursory summary of those earlier > discussions. That's one bad mutha of a sleeping dog we're talking > about... > Carrie wrote: > Oh yeh, best let that mongrel lie!!! Puleeze! http://www.myspace.com/emzdogz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:46:05 +0100 From: "Emma Wright" Subject: [RS] RE: Nora As John mentions, Nora's melody certainly draws the listener in (please excuse my layman's discussion of RS's music writing / guitar playing abilities - I just know what I like). Without even paying much attention to the lyrics it was initially one of my favourite tracks from Sparrow's Point - the harmony between guitar and voice during the sections "And I might have guessed" / "And there we raised") is absolutely superb. It compliments RS's voice perfectly, and really makes the song for me - despite being a constant source of irritation when it actually comes to playing it. I find it difficult to sing along at the same time, so usually play Dar's version, with a more standard finger-picking rhythm (I like her version a lot, actually). Also, the guitar throughout the verses is so sparse and melancholy; it conveys the narrator's thoughts beautifully - there is such an 'aching' feeling about this song. So, it isn't always necessary (certainly for me) to completely understand the words of a song (particularly an RS song) to enjoy it - Fleur-de-Lis is another case in point. As for my take on the triangle in Nora. If you view it as an allegory of the Heloise / Abelard tale, I always thought of Nora as being in some self-imposed exile, as opposed to something she felt compelled to do as a result of the Narrator's / Abelard's views on morality / sin. In essence, she becomes the Abelard figure. RS sings "the storms had passed over you" - it seems to me that Nora, despite her regrets, has removed herself from the picture, leaving a husband and lover to do nothing but 'raise a glass' to her - and perhaps, in a strange way, to give each other comfort. However unrealistic that is, I can imagine it, somehow. The storms have passed over her - as far as the narrator is concerned, she no longer experiences the tumult of the end of their affair, although it seems most acute for him. My reluctance to see Nora as an Heloise figure comes from the avowal of the narrator that their relationship was not sinful, which suggests that it may have ended at her behest. I also wonder whether it was on Nora's insistence that her husband accepted the parish in Greenland. Just my twopence worth! Emma Somewhere near Manchester, UK - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:41:35 -0400 From: "John McDonnell" Subject: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V9 #56 Hey all, Norman wrote: >>I love the double meaning of vows -- marriage or to his order<< I hadn't thought of that before, but it points to the lyrical richness of the song. One other aspect of the song which we've so far not addressed (and I certainly am not qualified to do so) is the melodic and harmonic beauty of the song which made Adam's view so surprising to me. RS guitar work alone on some songs just draws me in, which is why my favorites change so often (current favorite, for example--The Humpback Whale, with The Storms are on the Ocean closing fast). As for Heloise's injury, I still tend to think of it as physical, like Norman does, but I thought it was just because of the nature of my work (personal injury). It'll keep me occupied for a while, I'm sure. I'm also still intrigued by the claim that "there is no sin,"--it's something in the song which still resonates with me, and lends a conceptual and thematic density to the song, that, if prompted, could result in a fleur-de-lis-like rerun!!. John McD. - ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V9 #58 ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:16:31 -0400 From: "Norman Johnson" Subject: [RS] mongrel dogs who preach Carrie: >> "Oh yeh, best let that mongrel lie!!! Puleeze!"<< Roxylee: >> Yes, let's not mention the dog in Beyond the Iron Gate. Just kidding!!!<< Was it Howling at the Trouble? Norman ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V9 #59 **********************************