From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V8 #6 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Wednesday, January 18 2006 Volume 08 : Number 006 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] Best song/album ["Sally Green Heaven" ] Re: [RS] Re: List CPR [Adam Plunkett ] Re: [RS] Best song/album [Janet Cinelli ] [RS] Song of the Week? ["Sally Green Heaven" ] [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V8 #5 [John McDonnell ] Re: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V8 #5 [Adam Plunkett ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:20:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Sally Green Heaven" Subject: [RS] Best song/album John McD wrote: > I'm now running into the problem which always arises when "evaluating" a > work--what makes one "better" than another?? I don't really know why I > don't like certain RS songs since I think he's the best > singer/songwriter I've heard in decades. Hazel's House may be his best > song to date--what do I know? I actually don't think that's a problem - what one person likes in a song or an album, another person may dislike. The personal response to music is subjective, and while there are some objective criteria that can be evaluated, the personal response to a work is huge. While you might be able to learn to appreciate a work that you don't like, the visceral reaction to a song that you LOVE can only be experienced, um, viscerally. Anyway, that's just my opinion and also why I think that discussion lists like the Shindell list are so fruitful, fertile, whatever. I learn a lot about the songs by hearing what you all have to say about them and how you interpret them, as well as what sorts of emotional reactions you have to them. And I enjoy sharing my reactions to the songs and my thoughts about the characters, the lyrics, Richard's voice, and especially his rugged handsomeness (hee hee). - --Sally - ------------------------------------ Why is it Arizona hasn't gone solar? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:13:30 -0600 (CST) From: Adam Plunkett Subject: Re: [RS] Re: List CPR Everyone here, of course, has in common a love for the songwriting/music of Richard Shindell. But I think everyone probably differs with what material speaks to them the most. Yes, you can make arguments that this song or that song is better written, etc but I think it also comes down to what songs connect with you both intellectually and emotionally. I know, for me, some of Richard's more popular songs are not my favorite - I enjoy the songs but am not blown away like others seem to be. While I think "Vuelta" is his best album, I also really can't listen to "Reunion Hill" all the way through though I know that album is a favorite of many. Reasons why "Vuelta" is my favorite: 1) "Che Guevera" and "There Goes Mavis" are two of my favorite songs off any album. 2) I like that the album has a distinct sound to it. 3) I enjoy the subtle messages about the world we live in. But it is not a "hit you over the head" effort or an overly depressing one either which plagues many artists I believe. (For the most part, for every dark song is followed by one of light and hope. Island/Hazel; Che/Simple Song; Last Fare;Gray Green) 4) Most importantly, it is a rare album where I enjoy every track on the album making the album flow. I cannot say that about his past albums, as much as I like them. From: john mcdonnell Date: Tue Jan 17 20:52:10 CST 2006 To: shindell-list@smoe.org Subject: [RS] Re: List CPR I'm now running into the problem which always arises when "evaluating" a work--what makes one "better" than another?? I don't really know why I don't like certain RS songs since I think he's the best singer/songwriter I've heard in decades. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: Re: [RS] Best song/album Sounds like we should revive the song of the week! Any suggestions? Janet - --- Sally Green Heaven wrote: > Anyway, that's just my opinion and also why I think > that discussion lists > like the Shindell list are so fruitful, fertile, > whatever. I learn a lot > about the songs by hearing what you all have to say > about them and how you > interpret them, as well as what sorts of emotional > reactions you have to > them. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:53:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Sally Green Heaven" Subject: [RS] Song of the Week? Janet wrote: > Sounds like we should revive the song of the week! Any suggestions? Has the list done "There Goes Mavis"? If not, what about that one? I found it enigmatic at first but slowly some thoughts have surfaced. If the list did that one recently, then I'm totally open to any other song! - --Sally - ------------------------------------ Why is it Arizona hasn't gone solar? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:53:09 -0500 From: John McDonnell Subject: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V8 #5 Hi All, Janet wrote: >> Sounds like we should revive the song of the week! Any suggestions? Then Sally wrote: >>Has the list done "There Goes Mavis"? If not, what about that one?<< I found this one a little confusing--who takes a bird to a beach? Having gotten past that, I still felt the imagery was a little forced--the bird, the cage, the anxious parent--but I still bought it. My visceral reaction, as Sally mentions, however, is to the guitar, and when I saw him do it live, I was just blown away. In faxct, I'm at the point where I don't even hear the lyrics anymore, just the guitar. Perhaps that's why I haven't quite figured out the castle and its eventual destruction. It appears that the castle will inevitable fall-even though hope springs eternal--so are the boys just building something in defiance of nature, even though nature will win--just like Mavis will eventually fly away, and the little girl will get out of the cage of her mother's caution? (I always think the final wave of destruction comes simultaneously with Mavis' flying away). Although I think the song is ultimately optimistic, I really am resisting the notion that it lies in the bird's freedom (tired, tired metaphor). I prefer to focus on the kids, standing motionless, watching the bird, and perhaps not realising its significance, but being caught up in the visual phenomenon of a bolt of orange in the blue. That leaves me with the notion of nature's progress as something to be enjoyed, and perhaps not resisted, as we so often do. Just please don't tell me that the song is optimistic because of a free bird in a blue sky. All that said, I did want to acknowledge the points made about evaluating songs. While ultimately it appears to be subjective, as Sally says, it is Adam's articulation which presents the problem, when he says "you can make arguments that this song or that song is better written, etc but I think it also comes down to what songs connect with you both intellectually and emotionally." This is my problem. When one says X song is better than Y, that value judgment is implicitly directed at the person who likes Y song better, even though there is no basis for it. So, I always hesitate to say that "Wisteria" is better than "Hazel's House" for example, not just because that may demean someone whose experience allows them to appreciate Hazel's House, but also because if the criterion is just what speaks to you emotionally and intellectually, then it can become ultimately meaningless (which is not to say that I disagree with Adam, I'm just pointing to the the limitations of subjectivity). I know this points out the almost futility of "evaluating" art, but I also like to think there is some kind of analysis or approach which would demonstrate that one song actually is better than another. John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:54:17 -0600 (CST) From: Adam Plunkett Subject: Re: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V8 #5 John, I agree with you. I am not saying that we can't at all tell the good from the bad through analysis; I am saying that the difference between people liking and loving a song may be more linked to how they connect to it. Example: "Wisteria" is one of my favorite songs. It is a very well-written song. Are there other songs that are more "complex"? Sure. But the song acheives its purpose and does so beautifully. I can connect to it and it quickly became one of my favorites. But there are equally sucessful Shindell songs that I like but don't love for reasons that aren't at all about the aspect of how it is written or composed. And if we go down the evaluation of art road, I am going to start hitting my head against the wall because it is just as productive. :) I have a theory about "Mavis" but I am not sure it completely works so I will keep quiet until I feel more comfortable with its validity. From: John McDonnell Date: Wed Jan 18 12:53:09 CST 2006 To: shindell-list@smoe.org Subject: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V8 #5 I know this points out the almost futility of "evaluating" art, but I also like to think there is some kind of analysis or approach which would demonstrate that one song actually is better than another. John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:16:27 -0600 From: "kunigunda" Subject: Re: [RS] Hazel's House John McD wrote yesterday "--but I also don't like "Hazel's House" very much.. I know it's about his old aunt Hazel, and she was ill so he wrote the song, but it sounds to me like a Harry Chapin B-side". I'm a bit relieved to know I'm not the only one who doesn't like it very much. In my opinion it is so not Richard. It has the same light feel to it as "Puff the Magic Dragon"! I think Peter Yarrow would have loved Hazel's House in the old Hootenanny days. I'm not saying it's not a good song, I'm just very surprised to hear it on an RS cd. Carrie in KC ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V8 #6 *********************************