From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V7 #161 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Thursday, July 7 2005 Volume 07 : Number 161 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting ["Joe Lanzalotto" ] [RS] Great Songwriting [Rongrittz@aol.com] Re: [RS] Great Songwriting [Chris Foxwell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:17:17 -0400 From: "Joe Lanzalotto" Subject: RE: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting Sacrilege #1 for tonight - I have to agree with Bart about RS being better than Dylan - at least his more recent past. The man (Dylan) hasn't written a meaningful/great song in more than 20 years. Sacrilege #2 - I came to like Richard as the result of seeing him live. First time was at a house concert in Wayne, NJ. I never heard any of his recorded work until after I had seen him live several times. I was disappointed in the CDs and while I have certainly grown to like most and even love a couple, they don't compare to the live Richard. At one of those house concerts in Wayne, perhaps the last time he played there a couple years ago, some poor soul asked Richard about the albums - a question about them being overproduced or something. It didn't come out the way she meant it - sounded harsh - but I got her meaning. I appreciate less production in his songs, even when he is with a band. Richard of course shot back something witty about him having "been there" when the albums were made and made the poor woman feel, uh... very small. The point still remains that to date, for me, Richard has not recorded an album that brings out the greatness in the songs. I appreciate him much more live so that the live CD will be my favorite for ever, I think. Vuelta has failed to grab my attention I suspect not because the songs aren't great, but because I have not had the good fortune to see Richard live to perform those songs. And I still think he's the best acoustic guitarist I have ever seen. Sitting a foot and a half in front of him perhaps 5 times at those house concerts was a bind-boggling experience. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:52:23 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [RS] Great Songwriting Random responses to insightful insights: >> I like "Vuelta," but don't get the sense that it has the same density or richness that will accommodate repeated listening to the same degree as "Blue Divide" << Just to throw myself into this exercise, I listened to "Blue Divide" a couple of times today. It's never been my favorite record, primarily because I've heard "Summmer Wind," "Fishing" and "Mary Magdalene" way too many times in concert. And also because I much prefer either the full galloping live version of "Arrowhead" OR his brilliant picking when he does it solo acoustic, but not so much the studio version. And "Lazy" has never done much for me. But a few things jumped out at me today. This is practically a "Love Songs, Nothing But Love Songs" record. The title track, "SWCD, "MM," "TV Light" and "Lazy" are among the relatively few straightforward-ish love songs Richard has done, and here they all are on one record. And I also love the way "Mary Magdalene" and "Blue Divide" both end with those long held final notes . . . great declarations of undying love. >> I take Adam's point that there are some "lesser tracks" on the earlier works << Again, perhaps it's because I've seen Richard enough times to qualify as a stalker, but I tend to like the "lesser tracks" on ALL the records, if for no other reason than as a breath of fresh air compared to the "hits" that I've heard so many times. "Sparrows Point." "By Now." "TV Light" "Ascent." "I Saw My Youth Today." "Money for Floods." "The Weather" "Waiting for the Storm." One of these days, I'd love to hear Richard do a whole set of the stuff we never hear him play. Except for "The Weather," because I don't think Gene Frey's poor heart could take it. >> I can't articulate why I don't like certain songs--Blue Divide or Grocer's Broom, for example. I'm certain those songs have qualities that others may see in them, but I don't. Maybe they'll grow on me. << I'm still waiting for "Memory of You," "Nora" and "Tune for Nowhere" to grow on me, but it's not likely to happen any time soon. >> I listen to RS and have the same reaction as when I read Joyce -- a combination of admiration and intimidation: I will never be able to write that well << I haven't read Joyce, but I hear where you're coming from. I mean, while listening to the title track of "Blue Divide" today, I got to thinking: who ELSE could use that phrase to mean "the ocean?" Made me think of one of my other favorite songwriters, Warren Zevon, who could say "get out of here" much more brilliantly with the lovely phrase "hasten down the wind." While we're talking about The Excitable Boy, I'd sure love to hear Richard cover some of his early tunes, like "Frank and Jesse James," "The French Inhaler" (so long, Norman) and "Desperados Under the Eaves." >> But, RG, given the over-production of RH on RH, do you think the song survives it? << Good question. I was lucky enough to hear the song in its solo incarnation first, a couple of days after Richard wrote it, and that became the definitive arrangement for me. So when I heard what I once referred to as the "Royal Canadian Marching Oompah Half-Time Show Band" arrangement on the record, I was somewhat taken aback. But, I dunno. >> And Bart, RS over Dylan? Bold words, and not indefensible, but I think Mr. Zimmerman is too iconic. << We're not comparing apples to apples here. I tend to agree with Joe, that Dylan hasn't written a great song since the "Blood on the Tracks" era. But they're very different writers. I'd compare Dylan to Dave Carter, but not so much to Richard. And I'd still take Richard in a heartbeat. >> Here's another observation. Richard's singing, his voice, is variable. At its best it is a rich, warm, compelling sound that can be tender, thoughtful, reflective, anguished, sardonic, or angry, but never grating. But other times, especially I think if he is tired, his voice can be more strident and strained. << And I'm still waiting to figure out how ANYONE thinks he sounds like Michael Stipe from R.E.M. >> I was disappointed in the CDs and while I have certainly grown to like most and even love a couple, they don't compare to the live Richard. << Yep. I bought the first record after having heard "AYHN" and "Kenworth," and imagine my surprise when NOTHING else on the record sounded quite as, oh, zippy. Wasn't until I saw him live that I got completely sucked in. >> The point still remains that to date, for me, Richard has not recorded an album that brings out the greatness in the songs. << One of the things I always thought was that the long time Richard takes to record a CD works AGAINST some of the songs, because they're no longer fresh even to HIM by the time he goes into the studio. I think of the first few times he performed "Whippoorwill" and "Last Fare," and how the "Vuelta" versions seem a little cold and sterile in comparison to their early brilliance, like perhaps Richard was tired of them by the time he recorded them. Yes, I think there are many songs that exist in their definitive version on his studio CDs, but Richard's definitely a "ya gotta see him in concert" guy. And, I've just found out that I'll get to to that right here in Sandy Eggo in November. First show in a full year. I'm sure not in New Jersey anymore, Toto. RG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:24:44 -0400 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Great Songwriting On 7/7/05, Rongrittz@aol.com wrote: And I'm still waiting to figure out how ANYONE thinks he sounds like Michael Stipe from R.E.M. I'm trying to organize my thoughts and see if I have anything solid to add to this conversation, but just to shake everyone up, check this out: I was listening to a friend's copy of Morrissey's latest live album, and I was SHOCKED to discover that at certain times Morrissey in this record sounded very much like Richard. (This is Morrissey of *The Smiths*, now, not Bill Morrissey of Rounder.) It sounds absurd, I know, and I'm shaking my head at the concept even now, but I swear I picked up similarities here and there. Crazy. --Chris, somewhere near wacko-land - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." - --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V7 #161 ***********************************