From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V7 #160 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Wednesday, July 6 2005 Volume 07 : Number 160 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] Great Songwriting [Janet Cinelli ] [RS] Song Production [B Gallagher ] Re: [RS] Song Production [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] RE: Great Songwriting [Jamie Younghans / John McDonnell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:55:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: Re: [RS] Great Songwriting This is an interesting thread. The first song I ever heard Richard sing was "Arrowhead". I was at Summerfest in Massachusetts, not knowing anyone or their music. I found myself listening to this song, thinking, wow a story, a story I could follow! I was amazed by that. The song said something, not like anything I'd heard in a long time. I remember thinking that alot that weekend, hearing songs by James Keelaghan, Garnet Rogers and Lucy among others. I was just back there this past weekend and the music was great, as always. Jack Hardy was really wonderful! But I realized something else that weekend. It's really important that the person sing clearly enough so that the audience can understand the words. I realized this while listening to Jeffrey Foucault. I really liked his voice and the melodies to his songs but I'll be damned if I could make out the words! I thought maybe it was just me, I might be going deaf in my old age but I was able to understand just about everyone else and when I mentioned it to my husband, he said he also had trouble understanding him. I think with Richard's music, for me, it's the stories he tells plus the melodies, the guitar work, it all comes together into something rare and beautiful. I can't say if I have a favorite song but I recently bought the ones from the Smithsonian. I thought I was sick and tired of AYHN but this version was sad and bitter, maybe the original intent of the song? Well, enough rambling from me. It's good to see the list active again. Janet ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions  no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:39:58 -0400 From: B Gallagher Subject: [RS] Song Production RG wrote: "the incredibly over-the-top production on "Reunion Hill." In fact, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that even Richard agrees with me, and that's why he made the specific effort to re-record the song in the studio for the live record . . . acoustically . . .the way it SHOULD have appeared on the "RH" record." Yes. But re-recording a song in the studio for a live record? I've seen him do it live several times that I thought worthy of preservation. I have not heard RH sung with Tracy Grammer, which happened after the release of 'Courier'. I read that some of these performances are most memorable. "I guess, though, the thing that makes Richard special to me is that the depth of his songs -- like no one else's except perhaps Dave Carter's -- allows us to have discussions like these. Sure can't think of anyone else who does that to me." Indeed, Richard Shindell is the best songwriter in America or perhaps anywhere today (certainly the best s/s in America that also resides in Argentina :)). I take RS over Springsteen, Thompson, Zevon, and even Dylan. But unlike Dylan, Shindell ain't no song and dance man. :) (Bobby once said that he was a "just a Song and Dance man" when asked in an interview to characterize his music. - I still chuckle when I think of it.) And yes the wonderful Dave Carter is woefully unknown and underappreciated. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:29:40 -0400 From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] Song Production >> Yes. But re-recording a song in the studio for a live record? I've seen him do it live several times that I thought worthy of preservation. I have not heard RH sung with Tracy Grammer, which happened after the release of 'Courier'. I read that some of these performances are most memorable. << The "Reunion Hill" that Richard did with Tracy at the Knitting Factory in March 2003 was the best ever. But the reason for the studio recording's inclusion on "Courier" was that Richard was unhappy (either performance-wise or with the recording, I'm not sure) with the song in the three shows that were recorded for the live record. There were no other takes available. To be honest, though, I've never been comfortable with the way the studio recording was snuck into the middle of the live record, with the applause intro/outro added to make us believe it was actually part of the show. I'd have much preferred if the song had been on the live record as a bonus track at the end, and they'd been up front about the fact that it was, indeed, a studio recording. RG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:16:12 -0400 From: Jamie Younghans / John McDonnell Subject: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting Hi All, Great stuff guys, lots of insights, and Lisa, I like the Joyce to Hemingway analogy, because it sort of lined up with my feeling about "Vuelta" compared to the earlier work--I like "Vuelta," but don't get the sense that it has the same density or richness that will accommodate repeated listening to the same degree as "Blue Divide" or "Sparrows-No-Apostrophe-Only-Dashes-Point." (BTW, RG, on this no apostrophe issue, the title always made me think of that line from Hamlet "there's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow" and I always think of William Taylor as being at that "sparrow's point," i.e., about to fall. Talk about overthinking it!). As for repeated listening, I've had RS songs grow on me (and RH is one of them, though I still like the "Courier" version more) but I've never had a song boomerang on me like "AYHN," "Wisteria," "Nora," or "Next Best Western" which I thought were "interesting" at first and then, in a moment, just got smacked in the back of the head with how great they were. I take Adam's point that there are some "lesser tracks" on the earlier works--I don't like the song "Blue Divide," for example, but the quality of the work overall, despite some "unevenness," for want of a better term, is monumentally higher than most music and lyrics out there (the bar was indeed set very high)--the roller coaster is still better than the carousel, for my money. Since Janet mentions AYHN, and Norman thinks its overplayed (oh that any RS song could be overplayed!), have you veteran listers seen changing views and/or interpretations of the song? Not so much whether it's autobiographical/non-fiction or not, but the mood (or as Janet says, intent) of the song? I find it very poignant, somewhat bitter, but I've always felt the narrator was asking himself the question too, and reaches an awareness of his complicity in the break up. Did anyone else have that sense? To me the song is typical of the very rare dovetailing of storytelling ability with great music that is the hallmark of all of his work, and it's the reason that I can't articulate why I don't like certain songs--Blue Divide or Grocer's Broom, for example. I'm certain those songs have qualities that others may see in them, but I don't. Maybe they'll grow on me. Not wanting to end on a negative note--RG mentions other works of art, and I think that's apropos, though I don't have the same visceral reaction to other works of art that I've had to music in general and RS in particular, except to the extent that at times I listen to RS and have the same reaction as when I read Joyce--a combination of admiration and intimidation: I will never be able to write that well, and I am convinced that "Wisteria" requires six fingers on each hand to be played with any degree of similarity. Also, I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out that RH on "Courier" was not live! What gives? But, RG, given the over-production of RH on RH, do you think the song survives it? I didn't have the same sense of over-production, but I think that's a fair articulation of my initial indifference to the first studio version of the song--I heard the second-- "Courier"--version first. And Bart, RS over Dylan? Bold words, and not indefensible, but I think Mr. Zimmerman is too iconic. John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:21:30 -0400 From: LN Davis Subject: Re: [RS] Song Production Hey, on Reunion Hill, I love the version on the album and prefer it to the one on Courier, and especially, I prefer it to the kind of slow unplugged version! Some of my favorite versions were heard in February 2001 when Lisa Gutkin of Whirligig made an appearance playing fiddle and James Keelaghan and Richard did a duo on "Farewell to the Gold." Wow. Here's another observation. Richard's singing, his voice, is variable. At its best it is a rich, warm, compelling sound that can be tender, thoughtful, reflective, anguished, sardonic, or angry, but never grating. But other times, especially I think if he is tired, his voice can be more strident and strained. Sometimes we may prefer one version or another of a song because he is "on" or not when it comes to the singing, but we may not quite be able to put a finger on why. Lately I spend a lot of time listening to songs sung in languages other than English and in that context you can hear more easily when a voice is or is not musical. Or sometimes musicality isn't it, but a kind of authenticity. I bet the singer knows. I'm waiting (hopefully not too long) to hear Richard cover a song by the artist who is now the third in my personal trinity, Silvio Rodriguez. Totally different kind of voice and lots of those bossa nova chords richard joked about in "Lazy" but lots of the same qualities nonetheless. I've now heard so many bootleg concerts of Silvio's that I can compare dozens of versions and that has given me the opportunity to indulge in this version-comparison thing, hoping to figure out why this one, not that, is perfect. Lisa www.sharinglaw.net ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V7 #160 ***********************************