From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V6 #278 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Friday, November 26 2004 Volume 06 : Number 278 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] "too sweet" [Vanessa Wills ] Re: [RS] Why do I like RS [Vanessa Wills ] [RS] Mavis [Vanessa Wills ] [RS] Happy Thanksgiving [B Gallagher ] RE: [RS] Why do I like RS ["Gina Alongi" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:11:19 -0500 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: Re: [RS] "too sweet" Hi, Christy, I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts about Mavis! I think it's great you came out of lurkdom to talk about the song. I just wanted to clarify that by using the word "sweet" I don't mean to express any adherence to or dissent from a particular interpretation of the song. FWIW, I agree with you that Mavis probably does die after the song is done. I think this is a case where several people might share the same interpretation but just react to it in different ways. But that's not genuine disagreement. Your post has given me occasion to think more about this song, and I hope you'll share more of your insights onlist in the future. Best, Vanessa On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:38:39 -0800 (PST), Christy Thomas wrote: > Vanessa (& all) > > i certainly never meant to even imply that your > comment (or anyone's) indicates you (or they) knew > nothing about what Mavis was about - it is entirely > possible that i don't...!... i believe i indicated in > my initial post that this was simply my take on the > song...whether i explicitly stated it or not at the > time, i fully believe that there are many possible > interpretations to most things ...and only richard > knows what he intended... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:11:09 -0500 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: Re: [RS] Why do I like RS Hi, Greg S, What a cool "first" post. I, too, have attempted to convert my friends to the Richard-love, and have had varying degrees of success. And I totally understand what you mean about wondering whether the Richard-resistant can really be human. As is the case for many, the first song of Richard's that stuck with me was AYHN, which I heard him perform while he was opening for Susan Werner in spring '98 at Concert Under the Stars, outside Philly. I think that what caught my attention was how funny and even downright cruel that song is even while it betrays so much of the narrator's vulnerability. And as much as I might object when this song shows up on a setlist, there's little denying that it is technically brilliant songwriting, from the opening metaphor of the camera to the last "Are you...?" Have you tried AYHN to hook new fans? I think it's very user-friendly yet doesn't feel like a cop-out because it is a great example of Richard's songwriting and his sharp wit. In terms of what draws me to Richard's music in general, I guess I'd have to say it's nothing short of the fact that his work is near flawless in every area that counts. His lyrics are brilliant: as Carrie pointed out, his lyrics read like poems that a person can return to again and again, continually discovering something new. His melodies are original and haunting. His voice and his guitarwork are both fantastic. As far as the songwriting aspect, it might be no mere coincidence that I became a fan of Richard's right after I'd discovered the genius of Leonard Cohen, whom Richard has occasionally cited as an influence. I'd suspect that Leonard Cohen fans are some of your best bets for possible RS converts. And if you find one, I'd start him/her off on "The Courier" or "Nora." Happily, Richard's work is multidimensional enough that it might be possible to select introductory RS songs on the basis of who you're trying to introduce to his work. AYHN is always a good starter, though I find that for my female friends "Spring" and "Wisteria" work wonders, "Summer Wind" is great for those who like a hint of scandal, etc. I don't think I've actually answered your question very well... I would have to say that I think what unites the listers (those who post, at least) is that we want music that gives us something to think about. Many people use their listening time as on occasion to *stop* thinking, and I think that's ok, too. (Heck, it better be, or else I have a lot of explaining to do!) It's like the difference between people who choose their beer on the basis of where the hops were grown, as opposed to those who choose the beer that will get them drunkest, cheapest. A lot of folks just don't have the patience for music that yields its greatest rewards only after some work on the part of the listener (although I would argue that Richard's voice and the instrumentation on his albums offer something to even the most casual of listeners). I think what keeps me returning to Richard's albums is the promise that besides experiencing once again the songs that are by now familar, I may discover something altogether new and wonderful and surprising if only I keep my mind and ears open. - --Vanessa On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:20:10 -0800 (PST), Greg Sheridan wrote: > is there something about Richard's songs > as a collection, that make us, as a group, > like them? Or are we all drawn to Richard > for different reasons. I hope that it's a little > of both. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:29:33 -0500 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: [RS] Mavis I think the main thing that would keep me from seeing this as a direct metaphor for Richard qua songwriter is that the initial castlebuilding described is very much a collective struggle. The narration is all in first-person plural, and as Amy noted, songwriting is most often a very personal, solitary, or even lonely endeavour. The endeavour here is a shared effort: "All hands ready," "Shovels down Boys!" etc. If anything, the song lacks anything like a personal viewpoint. But that's not to entirely rule out a connection between castlebuilding and songwriting here. One thing I find striking about this song are the distinctions it makes between what's possible from a child's point of view and what's possible from the view of an adult (or, what happens when hope butts head with common sense. The boys think that with enough hard work, they can build a sandcastle on the beach that will withstand the waves indefinitely. We know that they cannot. Similarly, the little girl thinks that Mavis can survive on her own, but her mother regards this as an impossibility. (That said, it's possible although not likely that the first-person plural narrators are a group of adult or teen-aged males.) I'm not so sure anymore that Mavis is doomed at the song's end. Perhaps there's a difference between the castle boys on the one hand, and Mavis and the little girl on the other, in that whereas the boys are aware of the ocean as an obstacle, Mavis and the little girl are entirely deaf to any talk of its dangers. I wonder whether within the logic of the song, that imperviousness to warnings is ultimately a protection for Mavis. As has been previously noted, it's important to examine Mavis's role in changing both the literal focus of the song's narrators (from the castle to the bird) and the figurative focus of the listener (again, from the castle to the bird). It's also interesting that the boys are trying to change the landscape (by building a sandcastle) and control nature (by diverting the water into a moat, so as to protect their creation). On the other hand, the little girl just wants to let the bird be a bird. Instead of controlling it or protecting it from itself by caging it, she wants to let it fly free. And in the end, the wave has its way with the beach's sands, and the bird is free to fly. It's as though the song wants to insist that there's something inevitable about nature's triumph over those who would seek to control it. This song is really growing on me. Especially after listening to it on "repeat" for a good hour or so. - --V ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:56:12 -0500 From: B Gallagher Subject: [RS] Happy Thanksgiving (or, as in my case, non-meat turkey substitute.) And with that, I'll excuse myself so I can go give thanks and eat my weight in yams. Cheers, Amy - ---- Would there be a market for a life size tofu turkey mold? YAMS, YAMS, YAMS, YAMS! Christy wrote: perhaps i should remain a lurker... Nah, post away Christy, everyone's opinions are welcome. ...and only richard knows what he intended... RG has the 'Magic Decoder', hiding out on the left coast. But, just because RS intended something, doesn't mean one can't misunderinterpret a song for themselves. Good post by Greg S, and thoughts from Vanessa. Three shows on three consecutive nights V! And I thought I was a (Egad) FAN. Hoping everyone, here in the USA and abroad, has reasons to give thanks. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:44:43 -0800 From: "Gina Alongi" Subject: RE: [RS] Why do I like RS greg s, i just wanted to share that "fishing" and "transit" are two of the select group of songs that give me chills when i hear them. "che guevara t-shirt" may be a new addition to that group. i think what struck me first about richard's music was the quality of his voice. there's some raw passion in there. and then he writes such beautiful lyrics about interesting topics, and isn't afraid to take on a narrator role for some very different characters -- a trucker, a boy in the civil war, mary magdalen, etc. - -gina (other chills songs include "are you out there?" and "the ocean" by dar williams, "part of me part of you" by neil and tim finn, and probably a few others that i could think of if i didn't have a richard medley going through my head.) ******************************************** "every election feels like the perfect crime, like you can fool all the people all the time..." - -p. mulvey ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V6 #278 ***********************************