From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V5 #275 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Friday, December 5 2003 Volume 05 : Number 275 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" ["John Fix 3rd" Subject: [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" > -----Original Message----- > > [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" > [rfoxwell@wso.willia] > > "And let me live in the arms of a sorry old elm / give the > gypsy moths a realm > of their own" > > A "sorry old elm" refers to the nun's wish to go back to > living in a rural > setting, in contrast to the dignified, powerful walls of an abbey or > monastery. > > "I adore thee, Mother Mary / But would you change me back to > a witch / And let > me live in the arms of a willow / And fly around not wearing a stitch" > > An alternate reading of those "live in the arms of" is that the singer wants to join Mary (i.e. die and live in eternity). Elm and Willow were often used for coffins. A "sorry old elm" would be an elm that was already cut down. Just a quick "two cents" opinion. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:00:33 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" > An alternate reading of those "live in the arms of" is that the singer wants > to join Mary (i.e. die and live in eternity). Elm and Willow were often > used for coffins. A "sorry old elm" would be an elm that was already cut > down. Interesting. I like that a lot, it's a much more meaningful reading of that particular imagery than that of simple nature references. It would change the overall meaning of the song considerably from my reading, but I do like the idea of the singer's passion for Mary being so strong that she literally wants to die in order to join her. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:22:41 EST From: BashamPAS@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" Boy, there's some top work that's been done on the subject of this song and the latest effort is little short of a thesis. Outstanding! Many, many years ago, when I was at the now defunct Norton School in my hometown of Letchworth Garden City, England, I was in a play called Dark Of The Moon. Now, I know this is an experience I share with RS, as he cites the play as the inspiration for this wonderful song. Note that my part in the play involved speaking four lines, one of which was about "hawg killing time" (evidently not a good season for pigs!). I suspect RS had a somewhat more substantial part, possibly even the witch boy who wants to become human so that he can have the beautiful Barbara Allen. I really like the way RS turned this idea on its head - the witch boy asks the evil Conjure Man to turn him from witch to human, whilst the narrator of On a Sea of Fleur de Lis asks the good and pure Mother Mary to perform the opposite transmutation. I don't think this adds much to the debate about the song and probably repeats what many people already know. My own view has always been that RS was getting something off his chest, unburdening himself of all that religious imagery and iconography. He's doing this in his particular abstract manner, weaving together ideas in almost the same random-yet-connected way that they occur in dreams. I tend to go with the great James Taylor on this one. When it comes to the lyrics "it doesn't much matter what they mean, to me the words are nice the way they sound." Time for bed now on this side of the world. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:26:27 -0500 From: DrTobs@aol.com Subject: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V5 #274 Wow! I'm new to the list...I love the Fleur-de-Lis interpretation, as it's a song that always has left me wondering what it could mean. As someone with NO theological inclinations, it makes sense to me, especially in light of Richard's early seminary experience. Does anyone know why he didn't pursue the seminary? Toby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:07:34 -0500 From: Ron Alderfer Subject: [RS] re: An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" While it is facinating to read these discussions, and even participate in them, I always worry about trying to "get into the artist's head", and figure out why they composed a particular song, or what it means if they haven't told us. In fact, isn't that part of the beauty of music - a single song can mean many things to many people? Anyway - keep these discussions going, I don't mean to seem the wet blanket! I just felt suddenly protective of Richard's creativity, I guess...... Ron A ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:37:38 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] re: An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" Great, there's some good stuff going on here, let's keep it up! A few thoughts: > While it is facinating to read these discussions, and even participate in > them, I always worry about trying to "get into the artist's head", and > figure out why they composed a particular song, or what it means if they > haven't told us. In fact, isn't that part of the beauty of music - a > single song can mean many things to many people? Indeed it is, I agree totally. In fact, I've always felt that the various interpretations brought to ambiguous songs say more about the person doing the interpreting than they do about the song or the songwriter. So, feel free to conclude away about me. :-) Regardless, though, Richard has demonstrated a certain willingness to write about himself in songs; "Next Best Western" is just such a song (by Richard's own admission, according to his official website), and its subject matter is somewhat related to the intepretation I have placed on "Fleur-de-lis". So it's not like relating one of Richard's songs to himself is totally uncalled for, although I agree that a light hand must be used while doing so. In any case, I'm a cold calculating analyzing SOB at heart, so it's in my nature to look at things this way. :p > Wow! I'm new to the list...I love the Fleur-de-Lis interpretation, as > it's a song that always has left me wondering what it could mean. As > someone with NO theological inclinations, it makes sense to me, > especially in light of Richard's early seminary experience. Does anyone > know why he didn't pursue the seminary? Welcome Toby! I don't know why Richard left the seminary, but songs like "Next Best Western" suggest that it might have had something to do with faith. Whether or not he left because he lost his ability to believe, as the song literally indicates, I cannot comment on (and would not dare to...I already feel like I'm trespassing terribly on Richard here, as Ron A hinted at). Phil, great comments on the Dark of the Moon play. I knew nothing about it personally, it sounds like an interesting piece of work. I'd have to agree that RS was probably getting stuff off his chest...referring again to the FAQ on his website, he says that he was "in a trance" while writing "Fleur-de-lis". It would be interesting to know if he composed some of the song while contemplating leaving the seminary. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:15:01 -0500 From: Ron Alderfer Subject: [RS] "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" - continued > In any case, I'm a cold calculating analyzing SOB at heart, so it's in my > nature to look at things this way. Actually, Chris, I sometimes wish I was a bit more that way. I tend to "experience" a song or a film. While I have no problem following a story line, some people - like you - seem to be able to go several orders of magnitude deeper into interpretation than me. Of course, then I read comments like the ones we have on this song, and I have one of those "duh" moments....why didn't I think of that? One of the beauties of this type of forum I suppose! Ron A ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:15:38 -0800 (PST) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: [RS] An interpretation of "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" At my first visit to Falcon Ridge in 2000, Richard was in the Songwriters workshop, where the performers were explaining how they write songs, their inspirations, etc. Richard had said that this was the first song he ever completed and he has no idea what it's about! I must admit, I don't either so it's very interesting to read someone else's opinion about it. I just love the song for the melody and the imagery, even if I don't "get" it! Keep them interpretations coming! Janet __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V5 #275 ***********************************