From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V3 #367 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Wednesday, October 17 2001 Volume 03 : Number 367 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] thought/ action ["Norman A. Johnson" ] [RS] That play, that song, that fish. ["Norman A. Johnson" ] Re: [RS] thought/ action [Vanessa Wills ] Re: [RS] Re: sickeningly innocent [Lisa Davis & family ] [RS] that song ["Gary A. Martin" ] [RS] Re: Like Wow! [L8NiteBluz@aol.com] Re: [RS] Re: Young doe in the high beams. ["Shelley DePaul" Subject: [RS] thought/ action Vanessa wrote: >>He knows all of that, and instead of trying to help her, he does violence towards her. He sees someone vulnerable, and instead of seeing that as an opportunity to help, he sees an opportunity to live out his own twisted fantasies, and to deny Mary Ann her personhood, seeing her just as a potential victim to inflict his sickness upon, rather than a human being whom he can help. << Does he do violence toward her OR does he just contemplate doing violence to her? Bye Now Norman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:50:08 -0400 From: "Norman A. Johnson" Subject: [RS] That play, that song, that fish. E wrote: >>Should we start calling it "that song?" It sort of gives me the creeps even to write about it. It could be like "the scottish play" is used to refer to that certain bloody Shake a spear drama. << What is it about that play that makes it "that play"? It's bloody, yes, but so are others of the Bard's? Like Hamlet and Richard III. Is it the loss of dignity? Back to that song: >>Anyways, in some ways it reminds me of fishing. The narrator in fishing wants to take away either the immigrants freedom or his honor. But he is ever so benevolent about it. "After I rape your dignity you really ought to go out to Lake Ontario and enjoy a nice day off." Which is horrifyingly insensitive because of the circumstances and because this immigrant very likely couldn't possibly afford to go on a pleasure trip. << Yes. True, especially the part about being insensitive. From pleasantries the agent delves down dirty into sneers and slurs.... and he blurs the line between pleasantries and slurs. Norman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:05:51 -0400 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: Re: [RS] thought/ action Funny, because I was thinking about that as I typed, but decided I'd better save that question for later when I'm not struggling with my Recent Continental Philosophy paper (due tomorrow!). My comments were inspired by one reading of the song--I suspect there are many, and that there is no real answer to your question. The lyrics are wholly consistent with either reading, so who knows? Peace, V P.S. If any of you know a bit about Edmund Husserl and his theories of the immanence of mental states---let me know! Really! "Norman A. Johnson" wrote: > Does he do violence toward her OR does he just contemplate doing violence > to her? > > Bye Now > > Norman - -- "I still confuse mowing down with getting through." -Jeff Lang, "throw it all," from _Cedar Grove_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:07:19 -0400 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: Re: [RS] thought/ action ha--and for that matter, if you know anything about philosophy of action... Vanessa Wills wrote: > P.S. If any of you know a bit about Edmund Husserl and his theories of the > immanence of mental states---let me know! Really! > > "Norman A. Johnson" wrote: > > > Does he do violence toward her OR does he just contemplate doing violence > > to her? - -- "I still confuse mowing down with getting through." -Jeff Lang, "throw it all," from _Cedar Grove_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:09:25 -0400 From: Lisa Davis & family Subject: Re: [RS] Re: sickeningly innocent Ok, I am perfectly able to accept the idea that "By Now" is and was intended to be a dark and sinister song about the prelude to a horrible crime. HOWEVER, people, you have to admit that it *could* be read otherwise, no? MaryAnn is running away from home. the trucker (well that's what I thought he was, since the image of the windows open wind, blowing through the north woods reminded me of the description of an ex-trucker friend driving cattle across Montana or wherever it was) sees this rebel striking out alone, has some friendliness and even a bit of stern reproof in asking does her momma knows where she is -- I can bet that the offer of adulthood and so on, no seat belt, take risks, have a smoke (remember this was written when Richard was smoking) etc. would be exciting and dangerous. Jack Kerouac. All kinds of driving too fast and too dangerous and away from innocence. But not SINISTER. The tone of foreboding, to me, was what lay ahead for her. Like Cat Stevens "oh baby baby it's a wild world, but I'll always remember you like a child" and so on. SO, I do honestly think that someone WITHOUT A TWISTED MIND could readily come to the "wrong" conclusion. And I'm the one usually accused of being too intersted in what the writer actually thought about the song! Besides, the music is hauntingly beautiful! lisa, defiant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:12:57 -0400 From: Lisa Davis & family Subject: Re: [RS] Re: Young doe in the high beams. Let me clarify. He can write evil. But you're wrong about AScent. Don't you guys know the idea about everyone being able to receive salvation, forgiveness? the thief upon the cross.. He may have DONE evil but he is NOT evil. And no doubt that woudl be the message of the others too. You can take the boy out of the seminary but.... however, 'sweet" would not be my word of choice. lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:17:48 -0400 From: Vanessa Wills Subject: Re: [RS] Re: sickeningly innocent Well, in a word, Yes. It could be read otherwise. The lyrics are totally consistent with some nice guy just helping out a poor wayward kid. That's part of what makes this song so darn well-crafted. I don't think I'm saying that I know THE answer. All I'm saying is that I recognize a multiplicity of answers. That's different, IMO. - --V Lisa Davis & family wrote: > Ok, I am perfectly able to accept the idea that "By Now" is and was > intended to be a dark and sinister song about the prelude to a horrible > crime. HOWEVER, people, you have to admit that it *could* be read > otherwise, no? - -- "I still confuse mowing down with getting through." -Jeff Lang, "throw it all," from _Cedar Grove_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:11:33 -0400 From: "Gary A. Martin" Subject: [RS] that song >Our discussion of this made me wonder something new about this >song. What is up with Mary Ann? Why does she have bags on the >road late at night? Is she running away? She wants to be ready, just in case Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to mess up the Professor's brilliant plan to get the passengers and crew of the S.S. Minnow rescued. "That song" does refer to "Castaway", doesn't it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:23:41 EDT From: L8NiteBluz@aol.com Subject: [RS] Re: Like Wow! In a message dated 10/17/2001 7:47:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org writes: << Too true! I remember reading a quote once about either Duke Ellington or Wynton Marsalis (sorry, as many of you know By Now, I do have memory lapse issues), to the effect that their genius lay in what they left out of their music, rather than what was kept in. Come to think of it, I think it was about Miles Davis. >> Laura....it was about Miles Davis :-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:12:14 -0400 From: "Shelley DePaul" Subject: Re: [RS] Re: Young doe in the high beams. He may have DONE > evil but he is NOT evil. And no doubt that would be the message of the > others too. You can take the boy out of the seminary but.... Ok I have to jump in here. You guys are great! I love these discussions. Let me throw this out to you. Because I think this good/evil discussion is interesting. When I first heard "The Ascent" , in particular, the "...thief upon the cross." line. I thought of a verse in a Borges poem ("Luke 23"-which is also the biblical verse recounting the Barabbas scene) and knowing from his website that Richard reads Borges, I wondered if he might have been referring to or thinking of it. It's a poem about Barabbas I can send it all if anyone's interested, but here's the last verse. Oh friends, the innocence of this friend (Barabbas) Of Jesus, the candor that moved him From the ignominy of his end To ask for Heaven and receive it, Was the very same that so many times Had hurled him into sin and bloody crimes. The last lines are shocking, especially after having read the whole poem. Sort of suggests that there's a fine line between good and evil. The words themselves are vague. It's more a matter of impulses and human nature, which is complex. But, anyway, Borges explores many such themes (great writer - pure creativity) - with great insight and clarity - by laying them out there just because they exist. No preconceived notions or judgments. Nothing excluded. Like a child would look at a butterfly or a spider. Richard's kind of like that too. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Davis & family" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [RS] Re: Young doe in the high beams. > Let me clarify. He can write evil. But you're wrong about AScent. > Don't you guys know the idea about everyone being able to receive > salvation, forgiveness? the thief upon the cross.. He may have DONE > evil but he is NOT evil. And no doubt that woudl be the message of the > others too. You can take the boy out of the seminary but.... > > however, 'sweet" would not be my word of choice. > > lisa ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V3 #367 ***********************************