From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V9 #209 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Tuesday, March 4 2008 Volume 09 : Number 209 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. ["Chris Foxwell" ] Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. [Peter Booth ] Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. [=?ISO-8859-1?Q?john_cl=E9irigh?=] [RS] Layers and layers in Richard's songs [njohnson@ent.umass.edu] Re: [RS] Waist deep [Janet Cinelli ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:33:23 -0500 From: "Chris Foxwell" Subject: Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. On 3/4/08, rongrittz@aol.com wrote: > > You know, as I think about Richard's songs, I've never really > considered them to be loaded down with overarching symbolism or layered > meanings. Yeah, I guess there's some in "Mavis," "Transit" and a > handful of others, but for the most part, they've always seemed (to me, > anyway) to be relatively straightforward story songs or character > pieces. > > Am I wrong here? > > RG Heh...I don't think anyone's perception of a song is ever right or wrong. It is what it is for the listener. (One couple, dammit! Sorry, sorry... ;) That said, I may have exaggerated Richard's comments a tad. I believe he was referring more to symbolism, nuances, and character depth than anything else. His tunes may indeed be character songs, but I rarely think of any of them as *simple *character songs. I feel like many of them have more than one way to interpret them, or more than one way to understand the character and his/her motives and actions. To the tunes you've listed, "Fleur-de-lis" and "Nora" come to mind as additions, as do--to some extent--"Fishing" and "Last Fare." So perhaps "overarching symbolism" was a bad interpretation on my part. Perhaps Richard was really just saying "I'm tired of writing about (potentially) complex and (potentially) ambiguous characters; if I wanna toss in a mule, I can do it and it can just be a mule." As opposed to the things we've tried to do to poor Mavis, and to the camera in AYHN, and to the poor boy's arrowhead, and the billion blue eggs of eternity, etc. Sorry if I misled with my careless terminology. I can refer back to the interview later this evening and quote what he actually said, if anyone is interested. Chris - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." - --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:40:16 +0000 From: billchmelir@charter.net Subject: [RS] My Friends Neither of my friends Isaias Santos or Miles Henderson, who both died in separate AH-64 Apache accidents in Iraq, were big or damn fools. I spent enough time with each of them at army helicopter flight school to know their minds about the war they were engaged in. They were both outstanding young men who believed that the achievement of the goals of the war were worth the risk. Just because they reached the opposite conclusion then you all did when they considered the facts regarding Iraq, and I guarantee that they thought about it more then you, doesn't make them fools. Also, they both would have supported Pete's right to sing his song on TV. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device from U.S. Cellular ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. RG wrote: "You know, as I think about Richard's songs, I've never really considered them to be loaded down with overarching symbolism or layered meanings. Yeah, I guess there's some in "Mavis," "Transit" and a handful of others, but for the most part, they've always seemed (to me, anyway) to be relatively straightforward story songs or character pieces. Am I wrong here?" I see your way of thinking on many of his songs, but I have to say that FDL is one of the most many-layered songs I've ever had the pleasure to chew on. And like you mentioned, "Transit" comes to mind as well. Others, while seeming simple, are rendered "deep" by the occaisional "hmm....what did he mean by that" moment. Its part of the attraction, for me. LIke "a dream I will not tell" ...yow...that opens up a whole new dimension to that study of the Civil War widow. I think its another layer added with a few words....seems that way to my mind. Sort of that way for me with Dave Carter too. You dive in that lake, you really don't hit the bottom. Even if you TRY, you can't! It inspires me. I feel tapped into infinity with these guys. OK, back into my hole now, like the huge eel in "The Deep" that bites Lou Gosset Jr's skull off. :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:11:26 -0500 From: Peter Booth Subject: Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. "Wisteria" is pretty layered too, IMHO. Lots of stuff going on there that's not said. On Mar 4, 2008, at 5:49 PM, Em wrote: > RG wrote: > "You know, as I think about Richard's songs, I've never really > considered them to be loaded down with overarching symbolism or layered > > meanings. Yeah, I guess there's some in "Mavis," "Transit" and a > handful of others, but for the most part, they've always seemed (to me, > > anyway) to be relatively straightforward story songs or character > pieces. > > Am I wrong here?" > > I see your way of thinking on many of his songs, but I have to say that > FDL is one of the most many-layered songs I've ever had the pleasure to > chew on. > And like you mentioned, "Transit" comes to mind as well. > > Others, while seeming simple, are rendered "deep" by the occaisional > "hmm....what did he mean by that" moment. > Its part of the attraction, for me. > LIke "a dream I will not tell" ...yow...that opens up a whole new > dimension to that study of the Civil War widow. > > I think its another layer added with a few words....seems that way to > my mind. > > Sort of that way for me with Dave Carter too. > You dive in that lake, you really don't hit the bottom. Even if you > TRY, you can't! > It inspires me. > > I feel tapped into infinity with these guys. > > OK, back into my hole now, like the huge eel in "The Deep" that bites > Lou Gosset Jr's skull off. > > :) > Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:48:48 -0500 From: "Gregory Dennis" Subject: Re: [RS] My Friends I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your friends, Bill. FWIW, as I understand the song and the context within which Seeger wrote it (as a vet himself) the "fools" reference is not to the brave people fighting either war, but to the leaders that sent them to war. - - Greg - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: [RS] My Friends > Neither of my friends Isaias Santos or Miles Henderson, who both died in > separate AH-64 Apache accidents in Iraq, were big or damn fools. I spent > enough time with each of them at army helicopter flight school to know > their minds about the war they were engaged in. They were both > outstanding young men who believed that the achievement of the goals of > the war were worth the risk. Just because they reached the opposite > conclusion then you all did when they considered the facts regarding Iraq, > and I guarantee that they thought about it more then you, doesn't make > them fools. > > Also, they both would have supported Pete's right to sing his song on TV. > > Bill > Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device from U.S. Cellular ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:35:51 -0700 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?john_cl=E9irigh?= Subject: Re: [RS] Waist deep in Richard's songs. Fleur de Lis has always struck me as straight forward, and devoid of discernible symbolism. ;-) john rongrittz@aol.com wrote: > You know, as I think about Richard's songs, I've never really > considered them to be loaded down with overarching symbolism or > layered meanings. Yeah, I guess there's some in "Mavis," "Transit" and > a handful of others, but for the most part, they've always seemed (to > me, anyway) to be relatively straightforward story songs or character > pieces. > > Am I wrong here? > > RG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:34:21 -0500 From: njohnson@ent.umass.edu Subject: [RS] Layers and layers in Richard's songs Quoting Peter Booth : >> "Wisteria" is pretty layered too, IMHO. Lots of stuff going on there that's not said. << As is Nora. Fishing is a series of metaphors, and it's not clear how much is actually spoken and how much is the INS agent's internal dialogue. I saw my youth takes on at least two different meanings. Most of Richard's songs aren't simple. That's why we are still talking about them a decade later. Norman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:11:35 -0800 (PST) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: Re: [RS] Waist deep Correction on when they will be airing the show on PBS. I got it a day wrong. It'll be on: American Masters: Pete Seeger: The Power of Song Thursday, March 6, 8:00pm The 21st-season opener profiles folksinger Peter Seeger. This is for New York, I guess check with pbs.org to see exactly when it'll re-air in your neck of the woods. It was an excellent show. Janet ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V9 #209 ***********************************