From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V9 #56 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Friday, April 13 2007 Volume 09 : Number 056 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] Nora [Adam Plunkett ] [RS] archives [Jim Colbert ] [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V9 #55 ["John McDonnell" ] [RS] Nora ["Norman Johnson" ] Re: [RS] Nora, Nora, Nora! ["Chris Foxwell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Plunkett Subject: Re: [RS] Nora "Nora" is a rare Richard Shindell song that I don't like at all. To me, a good song is one that, during the first few listens, can be enjoyed and admired and with deeper listens one can find many differnet layers to the song. I find "Nora" to be too hard to reach because of the lines that seem to be provacative but have never read anything here (or come to any conclusions myself) that really explains what they mean. John mentioned the injury line and then there the verse about the parish in Greenland. It just doesn't come together for me. Many acclaimed songwriters don't appeal to me for similar reasons - they write these complex lyrics and people calim they are so brilliant yet I find them disjointed. But then again I think Leonard Cohen is the most overrated songwriter ever, (I know - it's blasphemy to say that.) And since the song is a nod to him, I may never "get" Nora. John McDonnell wrote: Hey All, Right--I didn't meant to skip over that "homage"--I had asked about it before, and on listening to FBR the similarity jumped out at me. Also, Nora reminds me of a Leonard Cohen quote, and it may just be coincidence, but he said, "Let priests secretly despair of faith: their compassion will be true." This reminded me of Nora's husband drowning his vows at the bar, appearing to forgive both Nora and her lover. Just a thought. John McD. - --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:26:33 -0400 From: Jim Colbert Subject: [RS] archives > I don't understand this song at all, this > Nora. > Thanks a lot. > Matthew > Matthew, et al: It's great to SEE some discussion here again! Kudos for that. But just a reminder that as a supplement to the current discussion, you can also often find interesting past posts about songs in the archives at: http://grassyhill.org/stax/shindell/ We sometimes used to do a Song of the Week, back in the old days, when dinosaurs walked on the earth... even back before that rabid pack of Cohen fans were chasing Adam with the tar and feathers... ha! Have a great weekend, everyone! - -Jim, somewhere near fatigue ps Carrie - yeah, violin (fiddle to me!) on Reunion hill... ooooooooo yeah. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:50:27 -0400 From: "John McDonnell" Subject: [RS] Re: shindell-list-digest V9 #55 Hey all: Well, Chris' exposition really opens up this song for me. I hadn't quite seen the song as a reworking of the Abelard/Heloise story so explicitly, so I need more time to digest it. I see Chris' reading of the "almighty memory" as the torment of remembering her past life/love with Abelard, but I was reading it as an injury done to her by an almighty memory which led to her present condition, so it was confusing me. I was thinking it was her uncle, who, in castrating Abelard, had destroyed their relationship, but he was now just a memory. (??) One of the things I do like in the song, however, is that I think it works well as a very straightforward narrative of a love triangle, without the characters (and I think the song has the density of a short story) representing something or someone else. That's not to say that Abelard and Heloise are not in the story, or are merely window dressing; just that the song has a very strong actual (as opposed to symbolic, say) presence, which is part of the genius, because the actual constantly evokes the symbolic--the blue christmas (a joke??) contrasted against the trumpeted ecstacy of the angels and the constant rebirth of Jesus; the "third glass" reading by Chris. In some way, while the song can be a reworking of Aberlard and Heloise, it has enough ambiguity to keep us (or at least me) guessing just as to the dynamic of the triangle. I initially thought the narrator was Nora's lover while she was married, and the husband forgives him. But he could have been an old lover whom Nora rejected for her present husband. Or, the husband could be leaving Nora (accepted the parish in Greenland) because of the affair. I was also interested in the "turn the other cheek or take it on the chin" alternative--which is not really an alternative because either way, one is being struck. Haven't quite worked out how that fits into the song, but it was an interesting juxtaposition. The song as a flip of Abelard's and Heloise's conditions is interesting, and Chris you will know more about this than I, but didn't their correspondence (A&H's) contain assertions of male and female superiority, Heloise thinking men superior and Abelard thinking women superior, or at least closer to God?? This struck me as dovetailing nicely with "Mary Magdalene" and the notion of the divine feminine but I'm probably just overthinking it (I'm not underthinking it, that's for sure) John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:54:52 -0400 From: "John McDonnell" Subject: [RS] Nora Hey all, Sorry about the subject line of that last post. Adam wrote: >>"Nora" is a rare Richard Shindell song that I don't like at all.<<---First the left hook >>I find "Nora" to be too hard to reach because of thelines that seem to be provacative but have never read anything here (or come to any conclusions myself) that really explains what they mean.<<--then, the right cross >>But then again I think Leonard Cohen is the most overrated songwriter ever<<--finished off with the uppercut! Adam, what about the song as a straightforward narrative about an affair? To me, the song's quality lies in the fact that it is very much grounded in reality, whereas many of Leonard Cohen's songs are full of imagery and symbolism which are not of the everyday or commonplace ('now the infant with his cord is hauled in like a kite, and one eye filled with blueprints, one eye filled with night'). Even FBR itself is a lot more cryptic than Nora. I'm a big fan of both, for separate reasons, but I like the fact that the story of Nora is accessible without Abelard and Heloise. Injury by an almighty memory could simply be a reworking of the counseling adage, "you're only as sick as your secrets" and that she is simply remembering and reliving a trauma. As for the parish in Greenland, I think that's just a (very clever) way of showing that Nora's husband was a man of the cloth, and has chosen to leave Nora--perhaps because of the affair or perhaps because, having drowned his vows, he is of little use in ministry, and so he's going to the largest island with the lowest population density. I get a sense of isolation and removal from that line, which fits with the notion of turning the other cheek--he has chosen non-confrontation, albeit in a somewhat passive-aggressive way. In the end, however, I'm not sure if the song can be analyzed or critiqued in such a way as to make someone like it--that seems far too subjective a reaction to be changed by analysis. I think Chris' take on it leaves nothing unexplained, and really exposes the underpinning of the song, though I also think the song rich enough in those layers Adam mentions as to have artistic value on top of the historical references. John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:09:17 -0400 From: "Norman Johnson" Subject: [RS] Nora Nora is perhaps my favorite Richard song! I've had the rare treat to hear Richard and Dar perform it together a couple times (many years ago). Dar has a recorded version of Nora on her EP "The Christians and the Pagans" (recorded at Cliff Eberhardt's house). >> But then to a large extent the song is about forgiveness, and choosing to suffer and sacrifice, perhaps as a form of redemption, salvation, or may be just a better way iof being in the world.<< I think John summarized the essence of the song just right. >> I'm still curious, however, at just what Heloise's "injury at the hand of an almighty memory" is.<< I also wonder about that as it was Abelard who was castrated. >> the implied emasculation of Nora's husband, who drowns his vows with his wife's lover rather than kicks his ass. << I hadn't thought of that before. I love the double meaning of vows -- marriage or to his order. Nor(m)a(n) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:46:42 -0400 From: "Chris Foxwell" Subject: Re: [RS] Nora, Nora, Nora! On 4/13/07, John McDonnell wrote: > > > The song as a flip of Abelard's and Heloise's conditions is interesting, > and > Chris you will know more about this than I, but didn't their > correspondence > (A&H's) contain assertions of male and female superiority, Heloise > thinking > men superior and Abelard thinking women superior, or at least closer to > God?? This struck me as dovetailing nicely with "Mary Magdalene" and the > notion of the divine feminine but I'm probably just overthinking it (I'm > not > underthinking it, that's for sure) First off, let me backpedal a little: I get so caught up in this kind of fun analysis that I tend to give short shrift to the point John makes so eloquently: these songs are so much more than literal parallels, and therein lies an entirely different kind of beauty than all this pedantic symbolism stuff. I do think that the various ideas/characters in Nora match up decently well to Abelard and Heloise, but--as with my reading of Fleur-de-lis--I would hate to be seen as promoting an exclusive "explanation" of it, or of any song. I frequently forget to mention that, hey, these are just some ideas that it is fun to give free rein to, and that--despite what it often seems!--I prefer to hold such analyses entirely distinct from my visceral enjoyment of a song. (Well, mostly distinct, anyway.) Richard is too fine a craftsman for his songs to be limited to specific interpretations anyway; if he wants to write a mysterious or nebulous song, he's damn well gonna succeed! (Heh, Tolkien has a great little quote about this kind of "open" writing, in his foreword to the 2nd edition of LotR: "I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.") John, in response to your question (though I am far far far from anything resembling an expert in this stuff): both Abelard and Heloise, and pretty much everyone in their day and age, agreed that males were the "superior" gender: stronger, nobler, more intelligent, etc. Females were seen as the "weaker gender," and that exact phrase is used many times by both correspondents in the letters. Abelard does once suggest that Heloise is "higher" than he is, through the precise order of greetings that he uses in the heading of one of his letters--how stylized and ritualized such things were!--and Heloise was quick to notice and protest it, but Abelard goes on to say that he wasn't suggesting any such thing; rather, he was addressing Heloise as the Bride of Christ, and was showing due reverence for her position as such. This reflects the general situation that you mentioned: women were often seen as closer to God precisely because of their weakness, much like a beautiful yet highly fragile piece of artwork might be the most precious in one's collection, precisely on account of its fragility. Towards the end of their correspondence, Abelard--and Heloise as well, through suggestion and prompting--argue for a relativistic series of protocols governing members of a female convent, softening and altering the male-oriented tenets of Benedict's Rule with the intention of creating a "fair" monastery environment for members of the "weaker sex." - --Chris - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." - --J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V9 #56 **********************************