From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V8 #14 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Monday, January 30 2006 Volume 08 : Number 014 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] Re: Song of the Week [John McDonnell ] Re: [RS] Song of the Week and more ["kunigunda" ] [RS] Song of the Week and more [Janet Cinelli ] Re: [RS] Song of the Week and more [Chris Foxwell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:57:37 -0500 From: John McDonnell Subject: [RS] Re: Song of the Week Hi All, Thanks for the reply Janet--I did get a couple of direct e-mails which focus on the idea of fecundity, but I know I am definitely overswinging on this. I am intrigued that the song makes you happy, since I always think of it as a lament. Janet's pointing out that the song talks of make-believe worlds and things that can never be has really opened my mind on this song. I think I have always focused on the literal--a specific narrator (whom I envision as male, contrary to Chris' post back in '03 that the narrator is a nun) looking at a specific image (a newly cleaned fresco) with a prayer for a specific wish (change me back to a witch). Focusing too much on those concrete specifics gives me that congnitive dissonance that hampers my reading of the song. For example, if its a male narrator, how is he producing eggs? A female narrator, to me, ignores the stated influence of the "Dark of the Moon" in the song. The following is the jist of my jumbled interpretations, which were in respense to Chris' interpretation of the narrator as a nun. >>I have been unable to come up with anything consistent, and most of my thoughts are fragmented bits of theories--I just don't have the intellectual wherewithal to make them cohere, so please forgive the internal inconsistencies Anyway, here goes: I see the song as something of a subversive prayer, resulting from a crisis of faith. The appeal to Mother Mary as a transformative power is consistent really with a pre-Christian/pagan notion of the divine feminine--a notion strengthened by the desire to be turned back to a witch--a pre Christian state. The "billion blue eggs" would lead Mary to have her own "See," which I take to mean an Apostolic See (oblique reference to Mary Magdalene as the thirteenth apostle??). Mary, therefore, would have her own matriarchal see, as opposed to the patriarchal sees of the other apostles. Query: Why blue eggs of eternity? This is part of my confusion. In the pre-Christian Egyptian creation myths there are references to the blue eggs of the Great Cackler, who was said to have laid the egg from which the sun was hatched. I have no idea how a pre-christian creation myth would help Mary achieve what is an explicitly Christian hegemony. On this pre-Christian notion, adding to my confusion is the desire to live in the trees-- elm and willow. Whether this is a reference to anything in Dark of the Moon, I don't know, but it reminded me of Osiris and the Tree of Life (this is consistent with the fleur-de-lis image, about which more later). Osiris is the masculine creation principle--which leads me to think the narrator is male--who was tricked into lying in a coffin by his brother which was then thrown into the Nile and landed beneath a tree which eventually grew around it. Isis (feminine creation principle and also Holy Mother) rescued the tree trunk which had been cut down and brought it back to Egypt The desire may just be one to return to a pre-Christian state, which I see as a crisis of faith, as the narrator prays to a statue or picture of Mary and wants some sign that she hears him ("don't just stare," "are you there," "give a wink etc.") I think the fleur-de-lis adds some credence to my pre-Christian musings. Although in Christianity it is associated with Mary, its origin is in the Egyptian lotus symbol, which represented the Tree of Life (you see my confusion--feminine and masculine creation principles become melded). I haven't figured out the "hollow room", but followed as it is by images of religious art--frescoes of Jesus and John--I see it as the Church, which has literally lost resonance for the narrator (he's waiting for an echo--the gate is exclusion). The "Wrapped around" lines fit well with the nun narrator who wants to bear a child reading, but I can't figure them out, unless it's just a description of the fresco. I know there are several works with Mary in a fleur-de-lis gown, but don't know of one with Jesus John and Mary. It made me think of the crucifixion, but that would be John holding Jesus, so .... (BTW I interpret the line "I would love you more than any man" not as I would love you more than I would love any man", but as I would love you more than any man would love you) Continuing the confusion is the seven seals stanza. The seventh seal (after some trumpeting, woes and bowls of blood and death) heralds the second coming. So, the song says never mind about the seven seals daddy was a one shot deal, which I interpret as Christ is not returning--God sending his only begotten son happened once, and it's never going to happen again. God was "had" because humanity, while made in his own image, has failed, and he is not going to save us again--another reference to a crisis of faith. At the end, the baby fits well with your reading, but I'm not sure if its another reference to Dark of the Moon, in which the mortal Barbara Allen had to stay faithful to the witch boy for a year for him to become human.Ostracized by the townspeople, the child from their consummated marriage is burned, and she is tricked into betraying him, so he remains a witch. The baby in the song I think refers to the one in the play.<< So, I'm still at sea (no pun intended), but a reading of the song as a world of make believe allows the beauty to come to the fore. I found that the focus on minutiae is missing the forest for the trees. I'm just going to let it go. I think. BTW--don't let the list die!! I will have nothing which will make it look like I'm working. Except for, you know, work. John McD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:27:52 -0600 From: "kunigunda" Subject: Re: [RS] Song of the Week and more Good Gawd Y'all!! John McD has finally gone over the edge!!! John you're scaring everyone! Why couldn't the explanation be something simple? It sounds to me much like a dream, where nothing needs to make good sense, the scene can jump from one ridiculous thing to another covering alot of different ground, characters change...etc. Maybe Richard fell asleep reading the bible! He woke up and started writing things down. Later he tied everything together (as best he could) into a song. There....... On a different topic....Is Scott Shindell still alive? He used to jump in and make a post from time to time. One would think there has to be SOMETHING new to report, such as - Richard has recorded one song so far for his new album and hopes to release it in November 2008. C'mon Scott, give us a tidbit!! Please! Anything! The list is drifting.....on a sea of fdl. Carrie in KC > So, I'm still at sea (no pun intended), but a reading of the song as a > world > of make believe allows the beauty to come to the fore. I found that the > focus on minutiae is missing the forest for the trees. I'm just going to > let > it go. I think. > > BTW--don't let the list die!! I will have nothing which will make it look > like I'm working. Except for, you know, work. > > John McD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:09:41 -0800 (PST) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: [RS] Song of the Week and more Since I had to look up the word "fecundity" I don't feel qualified to reply to all that you wrote John. I'm not knowledgeable on all the things your post touches on. I feel happy when I hear the song because it is make believe, at least in my mind and it reminds me of going to religious education when I was a kid. I had a number of kind nuns, teaching all about how God loves each of us and how special we are, etc. So, it brings me back to those times. I don't think the narrator is sad, I think he's making a wish he knows can't come true but it doesn't stop him from wishing for it. And if he's a witch, he can do anything he wants, even produce eggs! I found your idea of someone looking at a fresco and making a wish interesting, I never saw it that way. Hey even Richard couldn't explain this song so any conclusions we reach are just guesses! Janet Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:41:15 -0500 From: Chris Foxwell Subject: Re: [RS] Song of the Week and more John and I have been corresponding about the song, and while I won't copy & paste the entirety of my e-mail response to the one that John posted earlier, I thought I'd summarize the basic idea and then weigh in on the "billion blue eggs" thing. I feel that my interpretation incorporates the simplicity that some (including myself) want to see in the song, based as it is around the concept of a woman's aching longing, pure and simple, for a child. I see the song as a prayer, from a nun to Mother Mary, pleading with Mary to grant the nun her desire: to bear children. In order to bear children, the woman would of course have to leave her convent, and she seeks Mary's blessing to do this, reassuring Mary that even as a sexually-active "witch", she would continue to love Mary "more than any man". Throughout the song, the woman appeals to Mary's maternal nature, emphasizing the sacrality of childbirth and playing up Mary's identity as the Holy Mother. In other words, the singer is arguing the case that childbirth is the most holy way of revering Mary, and is the most sacred aspect of a woman's nature, applying to the central irony in Mary being the Holy Mother while those who revere her are forbidden from being mothers themselves. In making the argument, the nun is trying to make it clear that she doesn't want to leave the convent due to carnal desire, but rather to better serve Mary while satisfying her heartfelt desire for children. I won't go (back) through a line-by-line treatment that bears this interpretation out, not here at least. Rather, I want to focus on two elements that have been brought up recently: the billion blue eggs, and the concept of a "witch". First, and briefly: in early/middle Christianity, rustic women who had nothing to do with the Church yet who possessed strong mystical- or faith-based beliefs were labeled as "witches" by the Church. I see the singer as referring to this concept of "witchhood" In her plea to be restored to a witch: not necessarily the magical being that we think of as witches, but simply a God-loving woman who exists outside the church's authority. Secondly, about the billion blue eggs: now I'm gonna cheat and copy what I wrote to John separately, with slight editing. (John, we may as well move the discussion to the listserv...otherwise we'll be typing everything twice!) I didn't really fixate on the blueness of the eggs, other than the double-alliteration of "b"s and "e"s in the lyric; in my mind it's a fairly simple "nun --> bird --> leaves eggs --> populating her 'realm' with devotees of Mary" symbolism" setup, following the "nature vs. organized Church" idea that the song suggests. As for why the eggs are eternal, or produce a See of Mary's own, that seems pretty straightforward: the nun is trying to convince Mary that she will retain all of her love and devotion even outside the Church, and that should her wish be granted and she have children of her own, they too would possess undying love for Mary. Propagated forward throughout generations, with each child also venerating Mary above all, you have a whole buncha folks revering Mary, creating a veritable See for Mary...or, a "sea" of fleur-de-lis. Get it? The See/sea thing might be a bit too cutesy/clever for a song of such dignity, but I kind of like it. Perhaps this also might explain a bit of the blueness of the eggs, too, although it's a stretch: the (blue) eggs represent the nun's descendants, who will comprise of See of sorts for Mary, which is represented by a (blue) sea of fleur-de-lis. So, Mary's See = a sea of fleur-de-lis. - --Chris - -- "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is this comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine the fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water." - -- J.R.R. Tolkien ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V8 #14 **********************************