From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V7 #163 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Thursday, July 7 2005 Volume 07 : Number 163 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting ["Joe Lanzalotto" ] [RS] RE: Great Songwriting [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] RE: Great Songwriting [Janet Cinelli ] [RS] Great Songwriting, and then some [Jamie Younghans / John McDonnell <] [RS] RE: Great Songwriting [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] Six Fingers [B Gallagher ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:55:09 -0400 From: "Joe Lanzalotto" Subject: RE: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting >Janet wrote: >PS I also think Bob Dylan has written great recent >songs. On his album, Love and Theft, it has a great >song on it, Mississippi. It's just my opinion, I know >but I thought the purpose of any list was a free >exchange of opinions! Exactly. And hopefully without fear of being put down! Joe ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:57:27 -0400 From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting >> Vanessa had mentioned awhile ago that this is a good song to start with to introduce Richard's music to others and I agree. It was the one that got the interest of my crew << Maybe the best way to introduce certain types of listeners, but certainly a MISLEADING way to suck them in. As I said earlier, having heard only that one song on the "When October Goes" sampler, I thought he was a humorous singer/songwriter in the Loudon Wainwright or Steve Goodman mold. Then I heard "Kenworth," and really thought the same thing. Then I picked up the CD, and he went all Leonard Cohen on me. I felt I'd been snookered, since none of the other songs were in the "AYHN/Kenworth" vein, and what's more, to my (then) un-RS-trained ears, all the other stuff sounded alike. So, yeah, "AYHN" might get 'em interested due to its accessibility, but it sure ain't representative of what they're in for over the long haul. I'd rather use "Next Best Western" or "Mary Magdalene" to rope 'em in. >> Sometimes you just have to throw away logic and understanding and embrace the spirituality of a song. << See: Carter, Dave. RG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:31:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Janet Cinelli Subject: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting - --- Rongrittz@aol.com wrote: > Maybe the best way to introduce certain types of > listeners, but certainly a MISLEADING way to suck > them in.> It is misleading but when you're dealing with people who only listen to mainstream radio, you gotta start somewhere! Their ears aren't used to deep, meaningful songs and on first listen AYHN could be thought of as a lightweight song they could like. And they did, so I hooked them with that! My daughters have come to appreciate his music, not all his songs of course but they do have their favorites, especially his cover songs, all of us preferring Richard's version of "Sandy" more than Springsteen's! And as for Dave Carter, I could go on and on about how special his music is to me. I'll never forget hearing him sing "Preston Miller". I didn't understand the meaning of some of the words but I was able to follow the story and remembered the phrase "comely roan" wondering if that meant pretty horse! His music seems to be harder to draw people to though but I never stop trying. It seems you either get it or you don't. Janet ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions  no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:08:51 -0400 From: Jamie Younghans / John McDonnell Subject: [RS] Great Songwriting, and then some Hi all, Well, I think the wealth of responses--in quality and quantity--speak well of RS' music. It hasn't all been a love-in, though we are all fans. I think any criticism is good. Some additional responses to the insights, which I am enjoying immensely. It seems that my own RS analysis/observations are hugely lacking, based on having seen him only once, at Joe's Pub (though I have had my tickets for the Carnegie Hall gig for about two months), and his talent, based on recent postings, is more apparent live (which I find a rarity--I can't tell you how many times I've seen Van Morrison live and he f-ing sucks. Deep breath.) The dilemma this poses for me, however, is that as a live listener, I am a very easy grader, and can sit and listen to live music forever, even if it's not that good--something about the immediacy of the experience, I think. Before when I mentioned "lesser tracks," I meant that aesthetically, as opposed to lesser known tracks. For me, "TV Light" is a lesser track, but "Money for Floods" (a song which I love but still can't figure out) is definitely not. And on Dylan--nothing good since Blood on the Tracks? I suppose a case can be made for that proposition, but it may just be that he set the bar so high. Although I don't listen to his more recent work, I also think he could have retired in 1965 and still be a more historically significant musician/writer than anyone since. I wasn't really comparing RS to him, if only because no matter how much I may admire RS's work, most folk music today is a footnote to Dylan (I will not hold against him the fact that he may have been in some way responsible for Joan Baez' success). I don't mean that to diminish the artistry, just to say that I don't think folk music today would exist without the folk revival of the Sixties, which would not have happened without Dylan. Pete's point about spirituality is well-taken. In fact, I think it is a sense of spirituality that lends some depth to his work, not just those overtly expressing it--"Next Best Western" and "Transit" come to mind immediately--but on others like "Nora" and "You Stay Here" which I find reject its conventional articulation. I also think (perhaps like Janet) that it's the only thing holding together "On a Sea of Fleur-de-Lis." I'm also intrigued by Pete's own "confession" that RS as an artist, couldn't fathom that which many of us have to endure to "make it." Pete, are you saying that he couldn't fathom it because he's an artist--i.e. that he hasn't had to endure what those of us in the "working world" have to just to get along, or are you saying that his work is deficient in not adequately addressing those exigencies? It's an interesting point either way, though I don't know that "Confession" is deficient in that way, or that September 11 makes it so. What is the connection that you see? Is it connected in any way to what you see as the "nothingness ...that many of the Shindell faithful aspire to." I don't see this and am interested in what you mean by it. Do you mean a kind of secular humanism? I certainly don't see any snobbery--the guy is good, and so far, no-one is coming close, but I have to say that it seems to me, based on the posts I've seen in my limited time on here, that the other listers are very eclectic in their tastes, and appreciate a huge variety of musical styles (I do not include myself, and that is my failing). This is an RS list--that we may think he's the best should not come as a surprise. BTW, on a lighter note, I just introduced a friend to RS' music on our road trip from New York to Maine (and all 6 CD slots are filled: SP in slot 1 to Vuelta in slot 6!) this past weekend, and he also made the observation that his voice has a Stipe-like quality. My wife has also said as much--is it in the vaguely nasal sustained notes? I just got back from work and listened to "The Courier" (on "Courier") and I hear it--it's in the declarative sentences and the guitar that give the song an R.E.M feel--"I am a courier" and "I am the string pulled by the sure hand." It's very slight, but present nonetheless (and RG, on your favorite song, to boot!) John McD. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:40:31 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [RS] RE: Great Songwriting >> And as for Dave Carter, I could go on and on about how special his music is to me. I'll never forget hearing him sing "Preston Miller". I didn't understand the meaning of some of the words but I was able to follow the story and remembered the phrase "comely roan" wondering if that meant pretty horse! His music seems to be harder to draw people to though but I never stop trying. It seems you either get it or you don't. << With Dave and Tracy, I've been able to get people in via "Happytown," "Hey Conductor" or "Gentle Arms of Eden." Then, once their foot is sufficiently in the door, I slam "Kate and the Ghost of Lost Love" in their faces, and then I absolutely OWN them. ;-) RG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:52:51 -0400 From: B Gallagher Subject: [RS] Six Fingers A few responses to snippets from the last three digests: Janet wrote: "I also think Bob Dylan has written great recent songs. On his album, Love and Theft, it has a great song on it, Mississippi." "Mississippi" is a great song, but I'm a bit unfamiliar with 'Love and Theft' (and I own it) because I've only been able to listen to it two or three times. I can't get past Bob's voice. Is he serious? He is spent. Dylan is iconic if he can put out an album with that voice and we buy it. What Dylan song(s) would ya'll want to hear covered by Shindell? Pete in PA: I felt like Richard, as an artist, couldn't fathom that which many of us have to endure to "make it". Yeah, I can9t stand when some actor, producer or musician (usually it9s a highly paid actor) tells Charlie Rose how they devoted a year of their life to some project, film, etc. Get a job. But then, I can't imagine feeling low or ill and have to 'go on' and perform. Even though I go to work all the time. I also think snobbery about Shindell... Opinions, opinions. I played Vuelta while riding with my 70 year old parents and some siblings on the way to a funeral. Mom said RS was 3morbid2. John McD: > I am convinced that "Wisteria" requires six fingers on each hand to be played with any degree of similarity.< I once worked with a guy who had six fingers on each hand. No kidding. Five Fingered Bart ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V7 #163 ***********************************