From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V6 #47 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Sunday, March 14 2004 Volume 06 : Number 047 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. [Vanessa C Wills ] Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. [Rongrittz@aol.com] Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. ["Pam Calegari" ] Re: [RS] Che Lives [ptpowerlists@juno.com] Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. [ptpowerlists@juno.com] [RS] Che-Shirts [Wchmelir@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:06:26 -0500 (EST) From: Vanessa C Wills Subject: Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. Oh, come now. From the remarks RonG referenced, it seems like Richard was making a pretty benign observation that in Argentina, if you see someone wearing a Che t-shirt, then it's a pretty safe bet that he or she is a socialist, and in the U.S., it's not such a safe bet. We needn't infer that he thinks all (or even most) Americans in Che t-shirts are shallow people, just that he's observed that to wear a Che t-shirt in the U.S. is not to commit yourself to any particular political ideology. That's just a contingent fact about the significance of a particular political symbol in our culture. - --V On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Pam Calegari wrote: > >>> While here in the U.S., it's more of a generic fashion statement not > grounded in any particularly revolutionary ideology. Ron G. <<< > > > When an artist begins to believe that he knows the heart of all men, the > political sensitivities of all people, the righteousness or shallowness of > those that believe they are making a statement . . . well . . . he/she has > that right. But isn't that the exact definition of propaganda? > > I do believe, Ron, that you are saying Richard believes that the majority of > all peoples do not only not know, but even less so have the capacity to > understand the sufferings of those that have fought, and continue to fight, > for religious, spiritual, political, civic, and personal independence. Is > this not elitism in its most perfect form? > > I am disappointed . . . activism is . . . to limit or define its boundaries > is counterproductive and pompous. > > Che Lives, > Pam > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rongrittz@aol.com > To: shindell-list@smoe.org > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:41 PM > Subject: [RS] The Wearing of Che. > > > The last time I saw Richard (no, not the Joni Mitchell song), while > introducing "Che Guevara T-Shirt," he made reference to the fact that in > Argentina (where he lives), wearing a T-shirt with Che's face on it makes a > specific political statement. > I just found an interesting article supporting what Richard's saying . . . > > http://www.bullymag.com/1.20.03/stupidity-012003.asp > > RG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:55:20 EST From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. >> I do believe, Ron, that you are saying Richard believes that the majority of all peoples do not only not know, but even less so have the capacity to understand the sufferings of those that have fought, and continue to fight, for religious, spiritual, political, civic, and personal independence. Is this not elitism in its most perfect form? << I am not telling you what Richard believes, Pam, I am telling you what Richard said. And he was comparing the status Che Guevara holds in Argentina -- where, by the way, Richard lives, and where Che was born, studied, and began his life as a revolutionary -- with his status here, where most kids who wear the shirt probably can't even find Argentina on a map. But I'll take it one step further: I have no doubt that the majority of the rich white kids who buy Che Guevara t-shirts at the Short Hills Mall not only most likely don't know the background of the guy on their shirt, but also that they most likely only bought it because the Justin Timberlake shirt was sold out. RG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:43:38 -0800 From: "Pam Calegari" Subject: Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. >>> Oh, come now. --V <<< Ron, my rant was not aimed at you, but rather the ass who wrote the article you attached . . . and who after all has every right to his opinion, as do I. I try not to generalize about anything -- the core of your argument (and Richard's) is extremely sound, you're also probably right that most who buy anything "Che" really know very little about the man, if they did they wouldn't be buying anything "Che" because as we know, to do so is capitalism at its worst. I guess it's just their way of expressing their own disillusionment, as shallow as they may be. Pam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:46:16 GMT From: ptpowerlists@juno.com Subject: Re: [RS] Che Lives Norman wrote: >>Speaking of "che lives", there's a Young/Hunter sampler disc of that same name. Richard accompanies Dar on "The Ballad of Mary Magdalen"-- it's quite a bit faster than the Cry3 version.<< I write: And I like the "Che Lives" version more. Recorded live, it's spare sound (with Dar on lead vocals, Richard on harmony vocals and guitar -- ini standard tuning no less!!) is more moving than the Cry Cry Cry version. Pat ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:49:04 GMT From: ptpowerlists@juno.com Subject: Re: [RS] The Wearing of Che. Pam wrote: >>most who buy anything "Che" really know very little about the man, if they did they wouldn't be buying anything "Che" because as we know, to do so is capitalism at its worst.<< So, um, might we call this fashion "Che Che"? Pat ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:30:43 EST From: Wchmelir@aol.com Subject: [RS] Che-Shirts Hey there, The thing I've always found amusing about Che Guevara T-shirts is that you have to buy them. I've never heard of a communist organization giving them away to "help spread the good word about the movement" or something like that. No, they sell the T-shirts to raise funds for whatever it is that they do. Sounds like capitalism to me. To me it's almost as rich a concept as, get this, a "No Blood For Oil" BUMPER STICKER!!!! ??????? Anyway, I've never heard the "Che" song because Richard hasn't toured where I live since he has been playing it. Ron, I think I'd give anyone living just about anywhere besides the US more latitude with their political statements than to a fellow American. Calls for revolution within our functioning democracy seem so silly when one has the right to vote their conscience and the right to try to persuade others to vote likewise. After all that happened in the 20th Century, it's unbelievable to me that people out there still believe that communism can result in anything less than dictatorship. God Bless the wide-eyed college freshmen. I always thought the reason guys wore Che shirts was to try to get with the liberal girls on campus. WJC ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V6 #47 **********************************