From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V5 #276 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Friday, December 5 2003 Volume 05 : Number 276 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] fleur de lis [Pfleary@aol.com] Re: [RS] "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" - continued [rfoxwell@wso.williams.ed] [RS] fleur de lis [Pfleary@aol.com] Re: [RS] fleur de lis [ThisWasPompeii@aol.com] Re: [RS] fleur de lis [rfoxwell@wso.williams.edu] Re: [RS] fleur de lis [SMOKEY596@aol.com] Re: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault ["Alan Teather" ] Re: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault [rfoxwell@wso.williams.edu] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:45:53 EST From: Pfleary@aol.com Subject: [RS] fleur de lis Chris, I really enjoyed reading your interpretation of On A Sea of Fleur de Lis. Personally, I never found this song to be all that cryptic. It is clearly a song about someone pulled between christian and pagan beliefs, struggling to resolve this dilemma. Given Richard's background as a former seminary student only reinforces this belief. However, there is one point in your analysis that I do not agree with. You state that the fleur-de-lis was a symbol for Mary. The fleur-de-lis is a symbol of the Holy Trinity (three persons, one god) as far as I know. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:40:48 -0500 From: rfoxwell@wso.williams.edu Subject: Re: [RS] "On A Sea Of Fleur-de-lis" - continued > Actually, Chris, I sometimes wish I was a bit more that way. I tend to > "experience" a song or a film. While I have no problem following a story > line, some people - like you - seem to be able to go several orders of > magnitude deeper into interpretation than me. Of course, then I read > comments like the ones we have on this song, and I have one of those "duh" > moments....why didn't I think of that? One of the beauties of this type of > forum I suppose! I think that both forms of appreciation and interpretation are valuable, and "work" for different people in different ways. I definitely find myself thinking about certain songs/pieces of art in exactly the way you describe: I treat the words as just another musical instrument, without really hearing what the words are saying. I've often been disappointed when, later on, I discover that the words are nothing special and sometimes even detract from the overall beauty of the song. However, with folk music in general, and Shindell's music in particular, that has never been the case for me. Folk music so often depends upon what is being said; I feel that the primary meaning of much folk is conveyed through the words, as opposed to, say, Radiohead or Sigur Ros, who often create the feeling of a song purely through its sound. (There are exceptions to this generalization, of course, Van Morrison's folk material being notable among them.) Richard's music takes this up a notch, because he is such a brilliant writer; far from destroying the beauty of the songs, analyses of his lyrics bring heightened levels of appreciation, for me at least. I think of RS as a writer, a crafter of art through words, who happens to work in music instead of poetry or literature. How can one go wrong in focusing on what is being said? > However, there is one point in your analysis that I do not agree with. You > state that the fleur-de-lis was a symbol for Mary. The fleur-de-lis is a > symbol of the Holy Trinity (three persons, one god) as far as I know. The fleur-de-lis is generally recognized as representing the Trilogy, yes, but the Roman Catholic church uses it more specifically to symbolize the Virgin Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:38:36 EST From: Pfleary@aol.com Subject: [RS] fleur de lis >>>The fleur-de-lis is generally recognized as representing the Trilogy, yes, but the Roman Catholic church uses it more specifically to symbolize the Virgin Mary. Cool, I never knew this. I want a refund for the twelve years of private catholic education that my parents paid for! Actually, I probably wasn't paying attention when this was mentioned. I usually sat in the back of religion class, doing homework for what I considered to be my "real" classes. I'm really liking this thread. I'm home sick with the flu, so I'm not as coherent as I'd like to be. I googled for some information on the Seven Seals. Among others, I found an informative, albeit faith based, website re: The Seven Seals. http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/sevnseal.htm My flu addled brain has yet to come up with how this might be used in the song, but it gives me something to mull over throughout the day. Regarding the line, "cause daddy was a one-shot deal." I interpret this as a possible reference to monotheism. Although it may be more connected to the seven seals. Any thoughts? Peter somewhere near sebastopol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:58:39 EST From: ThisWasPompeii@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] fleur de lis Found this on a monuments website: Iris or Fleur de lis - Symbolizes the trinity. Enjoying this discussion. Donna http://tinyurl.com/n6wh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:36:05 -0500 From: rfoxwell@wso.williams.edu Subject: Re: [RS] fleur de lis > I'm really liking this thread. I'm home sick with the flu, so I'm not as > coherent as I'd like to be. I googled for some information on the Seven > Seals. Among others, I found an informative, albeit faith based, website re: > The Seven Seals. > > http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/sevnseal.htm Hope you feel better, Peter. Hmm...well, in the broadest, most obvious sense, "never you mind about those seven seals" could be the singer saying something like "don't worry about the end of the world, don't worry about the coming apocalypse". If we assume that the heavenly host are concerned about preparing the world for the opening of the Seven Seals (which will bring about the great disasters, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, etc.), and that one reason that they need priests and monks and nuns to spread the Word and prepare humanity, then this line reads as the singer saying "hey, Mary, don't worry so much about it...there is life to be lived now, in the meantime, and I can serve you better by being a mother than by serving as a nun". I know, I know, that's an awful lot to assign to a single line, and I'm aware of how big of a stretch and assumption it is. I'm just casting about for ideas. As for the one-shot daddy deal...I'm still in the dark. I don't know how this could be related to either the Seven Seals or the interpretation in general. > Found this on a monuments website: Iris or Fleur de lis - Symbolizes the > > trinity. Regarding the lily as a symbol for Mary, here are some links I dug up really quickly that describe the association. Note that I'm not saying that it isn't also used as a sign for the Trinity, just that the RC church used it in a more specific sense as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur-de-lis (third paragraph) http://www.extension.iastate.edu/wapello/walktour/stmarytour2.html (second paragraph) http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-02/moa-15.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:16:54 -0500 From: SMOKEY596@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] fleur de lis Jumping in here with my little two cents. :-) As for the Seven Seals and "daddy was a one shot deal"...I've always thought that "Dad" was God/Jesus. Never minding about the Seven Seals, Daddy was a one shot deal.....the Seventh Seal is the return of Christ, so it seems to be saying to never mind that, He was a one shot deal, that is...there will be no second coming. Again, not sure how that fits in with the rest of the song or other interpretations, but it's fun to try and figure it out, in my opinion. Thanks for everyone's ideas! :-) SMOKEY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:53:39 -0000 From: "Alan Teather" Subject: Re: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault I've always pronounced it fow colt. Someone, I think it might have been Neil at fish records ( if it wasn't sorry) told me that MFTL is so depressing that you can only listen to half of the record oat a time or you end up cutting your wrists. Alan www.candleicious.biz The home of scented candles - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Plunkett" To: Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 6:22 AM Subject: RE: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault > Foe-cault is the frenetic way of saying his name. As for trading CD's - I > think that isn't really allowed as trading is usually of unreleased > material. > > > > [Original Message] > > From: kunigunda > > To: > > Date: 11/28/2003 9:11:11 PM > > Subject: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault > > > > After a recent discussion here, I went to JF website and listened to the > > available cuts from "Miles from the lightening" and am ready to buy the > cd. > > > > I don't have any 'master' or 'live' recordings but I do have a bunch of > CDs, > > some of which might be of interest. I'm not sure; is it legal to burn cds > to > > trade? > > > > By the way - does anyone know how Foucault is pronounced? Phonetically? > > Foe-calt? Is it a french name? I never took french - Foe-coo? > > > > Carrie in KC > > > > > > > > > >I have a whole bunch of 'master' live recordings of Mulvey and > > > >Foucault, (and plenty of other artists too!!!) if anyone would be > > > >interested-- I have only 1-2 Shindell recordings that I have traded > > > >for.... (hint hint) > > > > > > > >We now return you to your regularly scheduled Shindell List, already > > > >in progress! > > > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:08:20 -0500 From: rfoxwell@wso.williams.edu Subject: Re: [RS] Re:jeffrey foucault Quoting Alan Teather : > I've always pronounced it fow colt. If the name is pronounced the same as the French philosopher Michel Foucault, it goes "Foo-coh", the "coh" part rhyming with "low". I dunno if the pronunciation is the same with both names, but I would wager so. ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V5 #276 ***********************************