From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V4 #334 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Saturday, December 21 2002 Volume 04 : Number 334 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] FW: Live Album Dubbing [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] OTL, Courier, etc. [Elwestrand ] Re: [RS] OTL, Courier, etc. [Sean La Roche ] [RS] Richard/Dar; band/ no band [Norman Johnson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:28:48 EST From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [RS] FW: Live Album Dubbing Another forward from Mr. Hunter: _____________________________ Subject: Live Album Dubbing From: Charlie Hunter To: shindell-list@smoe.org The Old Codger looks up from his Pabst to say: Vanessa has it right - "Reunion Hill" on COURIER was recorded at Ben Wisch's studio because RS wasn't happy with any of the live takes from the concerts, and he also very much wanted to acknowledge Larry's contributions to the evolution of his sound.It felt like an utterly necessary song to include on a retrospective live collection, Larry was off with Dylan during the live recording dates, so it neatly solved two problems to have them record one afternoon at Ben's. Then applause and cheers were dubbed in for continuity. Personally, I have no problem with this. We acknowledged that RH wasn't recorded at the Emelin or the Outpost in the liner notes, and IMHO, it'd sound dorky to have the song naked, without the dubbed applause. No other overdubs were done on the record - what you hear is what went down- except for one drop-in on "Fleur De Lis" where Richard scrambled one eight-word line. Plus we eliminated some tuning. OK, a _lot_ of tuning. My understanding is that, in terms of live albums, many, many of them are severely "cooked." Waylon & Willie's live stuff is, for example, ludicrous, with cheers and whistles dubbed into every quiet moment of the (supposedly) live "Good Hearted Woman," among others. KISS ALIVE is a famous example of almost everything being re-recorded and then married to the audience track, but in terms of something with a little more relevance to this list, I believe the _songs_ on Phil Ochs' wonderful IN CONCERT were almost entirely recorded the afternoon following the actual concert at another venue, to an empty house, then they were dropped in to the intros and outros. Doesn't make me love the album any less; just an interesting footnote. Back to the ballgame, Charlie "Sing & play, Townes, sing & play" Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:24:18 -0500 From: Elwestrand Subject: [RS] OTL, Courier, etc. First off, let me say I am not necessarily a huge fan of live albums. I really don't wan't to hear the banter, over and over again. I am a HUGE fan of Dar's, but I have to say that OTL really left me cold. I just don't feel Dar's warmth and passion come through. I much prefer several other bootleg performances I have heard (especially Sebastapol with Peter Mulvey) and obviously seeing her live. I agree that the problem with OTL is that it really supports The Green World and not more of her catalog. In general, I much prefer tours that are not in support of anyone's "new album." You just don't get to hear as many songs that you have known and loved for years. I'd rather see the shows between albums when the pressure to sell the new one is off. Also, each album has a tone and if you don't happen to be in sync with it, you are at a bit of a loss when a concert focuses on it. Courier chooses to draw from a much deeper well. Also, Richard really seems to be having a good time with the band. I have noticed this with Lucy too. She always seems to get such a kick out of those who play with her. I haven't noticed Dar having as much fun with her band (although she did seem to have a great time with C3). Maybe someone who has seen more of her band shows can contradict this. It just looked to me like she was overwhelmed by them. For me a Dar show will always be best when it is just Dar. Dar to me is all about vulnerability and intimacy. In my opinion a band detracts from that. I think that OTL pales in comparision to Courier. I think Dar's management, or Dar, or both, made weak choices about which tracks to include. It certainly fails to communicate Dar's music and/or her spirit. While Courier does a great job of representing RS. Most of you know that if I had to pick between Dar and RS, I would pick Dar (I have tremendous respect for RS, but Dar plugs right into my soul). So its not an anti-Dar slam. I was just very disappointed by OTL. I am hopeful that "The Beauty of the Rain" is going to be a stunning effort. The songs/lyrics I have heard/seen so far are amazing. I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season! Cheers, Lisa ________________________________________________ Get your own "800" number Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:37:04 -0700 From: Sean La Roche Subject: Re: [RS] OTL, Courier, etc. I agree with Lisa about Dar solo versus Dar with a band--at least Dar with a band of crack musicians who have signed on for one tour--as in The Green World tour which I saw in Santa Fe. The music was great--no doubt about it. But if I want music I'll buy a CD. What I want from Dar in performance, which Lisa mentioned, is that *vulnerability and intimacy*--that dancing naked in front of the mirror as when she was three feeling I get from her--which I also got to a certain extent from her early albums, but maybe because I was seeing her solo shows quite often then. And I understand that I'm being selfish here: wanting Dar, Richard and all the poet/musicians to play solo in my next door neighbor's living room. They have careers to build and maintain and I know that being able to have a band frees them up to a greater extent and probably also attracts new audiences to their concerts. I've never seen Richard with a band. My guess is that because his band has played with him a lot they are in more of a groove on what Richard needs/wants on each song, which isn't a lot, as we know. Just a litle *color* here and there. I think Richard is a great performer. Don't tell me that Richard doesn't have the often referred to *X-factor.* The thing with Richard is that the peformance is all in the subtle movements of the eyebrow, the shoulder, the small smile. And especially in what he does with his voice. Richard knows his characters and he describes them to me so well that I feel I know them and that they are/were real people. (And maybe they are/were on some other levels). Aghh--I am going on. I'll just say I love them both. They have brought much joy to this old man's heart and soul. (Charlie Hunter is a whipersnapper--and a very bright and charming one at that--compared to this old guy drinking his Schlitz in New Mexico on a Saturday night coming down.) Sean Elwestrand wrote: > > First off, let me say I am not necessarily a huge fan of live > albums. I really don't wan't to hear the banter, over and over > again. I am a HUGE fan of Dar's, but I have to say that OTL > really left me cold. I just don't feel Dar's warmth and passion > come through. I much prefer several other bootleg performances > I have heard (especially Sebastapol with Peter Mulvey) and > obviously seeing her live. > > I agree that the problem with OTL is that it really supports > The Green World and not more of her catalog. In general, I > much prefer tours that are not in support of anyone's "new > album." You just don't get to hear as many songs that you have > known and loved for years. I'd rather see the shows between > albums when the pressure to sell the new one is off. Also, each > album has a tone and if you don't happen to be in sync with it, > you are at a bit of a loss when a concert focuses on it. > > Courier chooses to draw from a much deeper well. Also, Richard > really seems to be having a good time with the band. I have > noticed this with Lucy too. She always seems to get such a kick > out of those who play with her. I haven't noticed Dar having as > much fun with her band (although she did seem to have a great > time with C3). Maybe someone who has seen more of her band > shows can contradict this. It just looked to me like she was > overwhelmed by them. > > For me a Dar show will always be best when it is just Dar. Dar > to me is all about vulnerability and intimacy. In my opinion a > band detracts from that. > > I think that OTL pales in comparision to Courier. I think Dar's > management, or Dar, or both, made weak choices about which > tracks to include. It certainly fails to communicate Dar's > music and/or her spirit. While Courier does a great job of > representing RS. Most of you know that if I had to pick between > Dar and RS, I would pick Dar (I have tremendous respect for RS, > but Dar plugs right into my soul). So its not an anti-Dar slam. > I was just very disappointed by OTL. > > I am hopeful that "The Beauty of the Rain" is going to be a > stunning effort. The songs/lyrics I have heard/seen so far are > amazing. > > I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season! > > Cheers, > > Lisa > > ________________________________________________ > Get your own "800" number > Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more > http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag - -- Sean La Roche 505/262-2969 New Mexico laroche@swcp.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:45:00 -0500 From: Norman Johnson Subject: [RS] Richard/Dar; band/ no band I love Richard and Dar for different reasons and would never want to choose between them. I enjoy Dar more when it's just her and her guitar. She's more flexible, more at ease. Well, I do like when she brings on special guests for a song or two. I'll never forget the excitement when she brought Peter Mulvey to do a duet on "The Ocean" last year. As for Richard. I prefer him with either solo or with a one-person band- like him with Larry. He's better with a full band than Dar is with a full band but I like the initmacy better. That said- nothing beats him harmonizing with Lucy. Norman ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V4 #334 ***********************************