From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V3 #124 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Tuesday, April 10 2001 Volume 03 : Number 124 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] Re: More from the Gadfly [Tom926@aol.com] [RS] production on Sparrow's point [jcolb ] Re: [RS] production on Sparrow's point [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] What th---? [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] song title [Katrin.Uhl@t-online.de (Katrin Uhl)] Re: [RS] song title [Rongrittz@aol.com] RE: [RS] song title ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] RE: [RS] song title [Rongrittz@aol.com] [RS] Overproduction ["Dave McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:59:17 EDT From: Tom926@aol.com Subject: [RS] Re: More from the Gadfly Well RG, since I often feel like the list gadfly I will just say this. I once dated an A&R man, who played me demos of someone he was championing and sessions from the recording of this singer's first cd. Never mind who. Not someone folk poppy at all. Now, I don't play an instrument (well does number organ count?), don't know anything about music, I just love to listen to it. And I did learn from listening to various takes of this person's cd that the arrangements and recording can make or break a song WHEN IT IS RECORDED FOR CD POSTERITY. The A&R person told me something that I found very interesting. They will often urge a person to spend more money on recording than the person wants to get a product that is more radio friendly. Yes, they do actually speak in that kind of lingo. And it seems obvious to me that SP was recorded with a small budget. Richard's last two cds just plain SOUND BETTER to these ignorant ears. I think Larry did a wonderful job on them-especially SNP. I am still PISSED that "Confession" wasn't a hit. In a better world it would be. Does that mean that the songs on SP aren't good? Oh please, don't even insult me by suggesting it. But you can hear a real difference in those tracks where Steve Addabbo coproduced--they have more "sheen" to them. The songs themselves, as they say, remain the same: thoughtful, tuneful and terrific. But oh, I wonder what Richard and Larry could have done with them with more money and their new record label! And yes, we won't even talk about things that are overproduced. Like pederast pop. Or live albums, most of which are recorded to honor what I believe are called "contractural obligations." I mean, The Smiths' "The Queen Is Dead" is one of my favorite albums but their live album "Rank" is the worst bit of Sire trying to suck money from their fanbase you can imagine. I can't help thinking "if the name fits..." Actually all this has made me want to go back and read Virginia Woolf's "A Room of One's Own" again. Which I will do as soon as I finish reading Oscar Wilde's "De Profundis." And I think Richard could use that as a wonderful starting off point for something of his own, the same way that Wilfred Owen triggered "The Courier." And is "Nora" based on James Joyce? Kate Bush used her and the famous monologue that is the uhm climax of "Ulysses" as the basis for "The Sensual World." It must be "Nora there is no sin" that triggers that association for me. So I am an opinionated fart. It doesn't mean you have to agree with me. And I do hope RG you were smiling when you wrote that! Or I may hunt you down and play you "Now That's What I Call Mucus...I mean Music Volume 6" on a loop. Heh heh heh. ;-) Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:09:07 +0000 From: jcolb Subject: [RS] production on Sparrow's point > Now." And there are people who say the production on this CD is crappy? I don't think it is, although you can definately hear a difference in aural quality on the HDCD (or whatever the nomenclature is) SNP disc and the first one...which isn't always the case with the hi-def stuff in my experience. I've noticed some folks just think of the overall sound "crispness" as production, not thinking in terms of the mastering and mixing and what instruments are added and what fills go where and whatnot, y'know? Now, that may or may not have been what tom meant, i'm not trying to speak for him, but to some people that is all they're referring to. Cynthia and I came back from a walk last night and spent an hour listening to richard, something we don't often get to do together (it's usually either in the car, or either one of us listening to him, or at work...) It was glorious. And i really have to say, I was shuffling tracks, and aside from the slightly higher overall levels of SNP, there is not (to me) a real clear difference beetween what is old and what is new just by content or sound alone, y'know? In other words, sometimes you listen to an artist's early work and there is no mistaking it is their early work, but I don't get that feeling with rs. If anything, i might have felt a few stragglers from blue divide were the earliest work. jim colbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:13:08 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] production on Sparrow's point >> I've noticed some folks just think of the overall sound "crispness" as production, not thinking in terms of the mastering and mixing and what instruments are added and what fills go where and whatnot, y'know? << Well, when I think of “bad” production, I tend to think of it in terms of OVER-production, specifically, “What was (producer’s name) thinking when he did THAT?” You know, when instruments seem to be tossed in for no particular reason (see: the digeridoo on Dar Williams’ “As Cool As I Am” or that hubcap slamming sound on Shawn Colvin’s “Another Long One” from her first CD) or when the producer EQs all the character out of the singer’s voice to give it more generic appeal(see: any Nanci Griffith CD since “Little Love Affairs”). Given that, I tend to think that most overproduction happens when the producer and performer have MORE time and money and resources to work with -– RATHER than when they’re forced to work on a shoestring budget -- and forget to let the process happen naturally and magically, and just start messing around with instruments and processing because they CAN . . . not because they SHOULD. RG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:33:17 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [RS] What th---? Wow, THAT sure came out strange. That's one more email program I can toss in the garbage . . . RG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:21:09 +0200 From: Katrin.Uhl@t-online.de (Katrin Uhl) Subject: [RS] song title hi guys, on another list I'm on the question came up what song Richard had written for his wife - I suggested "blue divide" (written for his first wife?) - but I'm not entirely sure. Anybody else more knowledgeable? Katrin - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- i do it for the joy it brings because i'm a joyful girl because the world owes me nothing and we owe each other the world ani difranco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:47:29 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] song title >> on another list I'm on the question came up what song Richard had written for his wife - I suggested "blue divide" (written for his first wife?) - but I'm not entirely sure. Anybody else more knowledgeable? << While "Blue Divide" might clearly be written about his wife, if I'm not mistaken (I don't have the CD with me at the moment), I believe the liner notes to _Sparrows Point_ clearly indicate that "You Again" is dedicated to her. RG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:19:50 -0500 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] song title Ron wrote: >> While "Blue Divide" might clearly be written about his wife, if I'm not mistaken (I don't have the CD with me at the moment), I believe the liner notes to _Sparrows Point_ clearly indicate that "You Again" is dedicated to her. << And I have also heard him say that Summer Wind, Cotton Dress is a true story. It could be that the "love put down" was shared with his current wife (damned memory, is it Lila?) and that's how I like to imagine it -- that he's back with his soul mate who haunted his dreams in You Again. These two songs have always been tied together for me. "When I'm lying in our bed..." seems to refer nicely to "Just the wind..." He has closed the window tight, not just against the night, but in an attempt to close out the memories of the one who is no longer available to him. Still, he can't escape them and he sometimes dreams he's holding her instead. Then again, it might just be a true story that belongs to one of his characters? I hope not. - -- john andrew clary home mailto:john.cleirigh@juno.com work mailto:clry@chevron.com "the music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. there's also a negative side." ~ hunter s. thompson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:53:34 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: RE: [RS] song title Re: "You Again" . . . >> He has closed the window tight, not just against the night, but in an attempt to close out the memories of the one who is no longer available to him. << Which is why I can't listen to the song anymore. I once made two tapes for my girlfriend at the time . . . one tape with the most beautiful love songs I could imagine, and one tape with the most heart-wrenching "love no more" songs I could imagine. And "You Again" made BOTH tapes. RG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:21:00 +0100 From: "Dave McKay" Subject: [RS] Overproduction In amongst the formatting funnies, Ron G wrote: > Well, when I think of bad production, I tend to think of it > in terms of OVER-production, specifically, What was > (producers name) thinking when he did THAT? You know, when > instruments seem to be tossed in for no particular reason (see: the > digeridoo on Dar Williams As Cool As I Am or that > hubcap slamming sound on Shawn Colvins Another Long > One from her first CD) or when the producer EQs all the character > out of the singers voice to give it more generic appeal(see: any > Nanci Griffith CD since Little Love Affairs). A couple of tracks on Lori McKenna's new release ("Pieces Of Me") spring to mind, especially the treatment given to Fireflies. Much I as like Ellis Paul, who backs Lori on the CD, the Respond version of the song with spare instrumentation and Kris Delmhorst on harmony will always be the definitive incarnation for me. Dave. ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V3 #124 ***********************************