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Subject: shindell-list-digest V2 #276
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shindell-list-digest   Wednesday, September 27 2000   Volume 02 : Number 276



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  RE: [RS] Troubled by "Transit"  ["Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" <edupas2@ford.com>]
  [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"  ["Batgirl of the Night" <dscully73@hot]
  RE: [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"  ["Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" <edupas2@f]
  RE: [RS] Troubled by "Transit"    ["Clary, John (CLRY)" <CLRY@chevron.com>]
  [RS] Re: Troubled by Transit             ["Dave McKay" <dgmckay@cwcom.net>]
  [RS] SOTW                             [Elwestrand  <elwestrand@ureach.com>]
  Re: [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"  [Lisa Davis & family <ldavis@conni]
  RE: [RS] SOTW                     ["Clary, John (CLRY)" <CLRY@chevron.com>]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:54:05 -0400
From: "Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" <edupas2@ford.com>
Subject: RE: [RS] Troubled by "Transit"

<<And for that matter one of the things that intrigues is the way so many of
these
songs are about "religion" all the while he claims he's not really a
"believer" in the ideas they express.>>

I cannot believe that a person gets all the way into the seminary and then
just does an about face and discounts religion, or rather, spirituality
altogether.  That "religious" baggage has got to be stowed in the back of
RS's Audi somewhere.  I have always assumed that he still believed in the
"unseen" but grew tired of his previous religion of choice.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:36:30 EDT
From: "Batgirl of the Night" <dscully73@hotmail.com>
Subject: [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"

Dear Friends,

  I am not sure if RonD speaks for everyone on the list or not but I do wish 
to apologize for the 'cross posting'. I'm fairly new to the lists and I 
wasn't aware that cross posting was frowned upon. If I had known, I would 
never have tried to intentionally upset my fellow listers, honest! I 
consider all of you my friends:). I had the pleasure of spending time last 
night with Norman A. Johnson(lister) and I told him how very thankful I am 
to have discovered the 'lists', how warm and friendly everyone has been to 
me and made me feel very welcome. Richard's, Lucy's and Dar's music, the 
lists and everyone on it have gotten me through 'very' severe depression and 
I am more grateful to all of you than I can possibly express with words. So 
despite the fact that I feel a bit hated, my feelings toward the lists and 
ALL of the listers remains to be positive and appreciative:). I am not at 
all angry, I just feel hurt, unfortunately I tend to be a very sensitive 
person. Once again, I am really sorry for the cross posting and I promise 
not to do that again. Thanks for hearing me out, take care everyone!

                           "Love Is All We Need"
                                 PEACE :)
                             Renee Polgar
                          dscully73@hotmail.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:03:58 -0400
From: "Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" <edupas2@ford.com>
Subject: RE: [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"

<<So despite the fact that I feel a bit hated, my feelings toward the lists
and 
ALL of the listers remains to be positive and appreciative:).>>

I am only on the Richard list so I can't say that I harbor any such feelings
towards you.  However, if you ever cross-post to the "Burl Ives list" you
and I are gonna have words!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:14:52 -0700
From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" <CLRY@chevron.com>
Subject: RE: [RS] Troubled by "Transit"

Thom pondered:
>> I just feel troubled by the suggestion of the song that, in the end of it
all, someone or some groups are gonna get ambushed, while others will be
forgiven and welcome . . . even if the descriptions of who is forgiven and
who is ambushed are switched around.  Or have I misread the song? <<

I no longer buy the concept that people are inherently evil and need to be
forgiven by "God" to redeem their souls, but I do think that many people who
embrace evil energy can, in this lifetime, turn around and be reconciled.
Good for them.  Good for me.  Good for all of us.  Certainly the folks in
the prison's choir are far better off in their life's journey than those
folks out on the interstate heading West and into the blinding sun.  They
are the ones who get my sympathy.  Their rage and exhaustion have dumbed
them down to a point where they aren't even aware that they are missing
life's opportunities (missed exits).

I don't think Richard is saying that we have to be incarcerated to figure
out a better way of living.  But he does suggest to me that sometimes I take
people's position in society for granted -- that their position tells me
about the condition of their soul.  I am reminded all the time about how
perspective is a beautiful thing to ponder.  Transit reminds me often.  Like
when Sister Maria prays, "Thank God the traffic is light."  Perspective.  I
love Ani Di Franco's lyric: There's nothing worse than a sunset...when
you're driving due West.  Of course I would pull over and enjoy it, but
that's my perspective, and I'm never too late for something else to stop and
enjoy Mother's paintings.  Just sometimes I need to be reminded.

j a c

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:34:21 +0100
From: "Dave McKay" <dgmckay@cwcom.net>
Subject: [RS] Re: Troubled by Transit

Roxylee claimed:
> This song, to me, explains Christianity.

I'm not sure it *explains* Christianity, but it certainly causes us to
dwell on many of its inconsistencies and illogicalities.

The drivers are, of themselves, not sinners in the grand sense of the
word ... sure they're a little self-centred, but then who isn't? Their
main transgression appears to be that they haven't embraced a god
figure.

Compare this with the inhabitants of the prison: crack dealers and
murderers, quite literally the scum of the earth, who in some twisted
way are to be "saved" because they "believe" and subscribe to the cult
of forgiveness.

Somewhere along the line, the system got all out of kilter ... you can
get away with murder in the afterlife, but heaven help you if you
don't believe in a god ...

Hmmm. Maybe it *does* explain Christianity after all, or at least
people's adherence to it.

Dave.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:41:08 -0400
From: Elwestrand  <elwestrand@ureach.com>
Subject: [RS] SOTW

Well now that I think about and listen to some of your 
interesting thoughts on the matter one thing occurs to me. We 
have no evidence to assume that Sister Maria wouldn't be equally 
forgiving of the motorists as she is of the prisoners. She is 
simply aware of the needs of the prisoners to be forgiven.

In addition, there is no proof that because they are in the 
choir, they are seeking grace. Maybe they are just seeking a 
pardon. Or maybe the choir isn't voluntary or maybe they just 
like to sing. I think what is important is that Sister Maria 
wants the best for them and that she is a beautiful soul. Also, 
it might be pointed out that despite all her goodness she is 
mostly powerless. While she radiates forgiveness to her choir, 
half of New Jersey has just crashed and drown outside of her 
awareness. Wouldn't a loving God have made her aware of 
them? Maybe, this is part of the story, the prodigals sons and 
father's and brothers get her attention, while the rest of us 
are ignored. But hey, I never understood that prodigal son 
business anyway. It always seemed like a weak justification for 
favoritism to me.

E

P.S. Obscure question: Does this song remind anyone else of 
VDGG's Lemmings?

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:03:01 -0400
From: Lisa Davis & family <ldavis@connix.com>
Subject: Re: [RS] From Renee-"The Cross Bearer"

My kids and I are working on a compilation of Household Rules.  One of
them I don't know how to say any better than "don't assume a bad
thing."  In some contexts this means "don't take offense."  In others
"don't assume someone did something annoying (etc) *on purpose* unless
all other possibilities have been exhausted."  

lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:21:28 -0500
From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" <CLRY@chevron.com>
Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW

>> We have no evidence to assume that Sister Maria wouldn't be equally
forgiving of the motorists as she is of the prisoners. She is simply aware
of the needs of the prisoners to be forgiven. <<

OK, Elwestrand, I know this is gonna be hard for you, as you have worked so
hard to throw off these shackles (as I have), but remember back to your
early catholic days for a moment.  The difference between the two is that
the prisoners in the choir seem to have asked for forgiveness.  That's the
Christian concept working here.  You aren't forgiven until you ask.  I
enjoyed reading Lisa Davis' note regarding Faith and Grace.  What's so hard
for me is that in order to accept saving grace I must somehow acknowledge
that I am evil and need to be rescued.  I also have trouble with the idea
that somehow a human has the power to grant Divine forgiveness.  How
arrogant!

"...her face like a prism, the light of forgiveness on all of their faces."
Is that how the line goes?  It's one thing to shine or reflect Divine
forgiveness (as I think Sister Maria does here), but how does a human stand
in proxy for God?  Even ordination does not free a human from sin.
Certainly these inmates did not directly sin against Sister Maria, so she
has no reason to personally forgive them, right?  If there is a God and
(S)He made me, why can't (S)He come directly to me?  And if I am created in
this God's image, you can't tell me that I am too sinful to be in the
presence of that God.

I don't mean to burden y'all with s'plaining it to me.  Hell, my seminary
Profs. couldn't do it either.  I just feel so much better about me now that
I'm not worried about burning in Hell or not having as many jewels in my
crown as the next guy.  The idea of Grace suggested to me that I couldn't
earn my salvation anyway, but I still feel compelled to "be good."  It's
just my nature.  Why can't that be enough?

j a c

<some of these thoughts are shared with a tongue in cheek assumption that
the christian concepts are true, for argument's sake>

------------------------------

End of shindell-list-digest V2 #276
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