From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V2 #242 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Wednesday, September 6 2000 Volume 02 : Number 242 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [RS] YSH and God [RockinRonD@aol.com] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS [Thom Bassett ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS [Deb Woodell ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS ["Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" ] [RS] storms and quakes [Lee Wessman ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS ["Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:51:45 EDT From: RockinRonD@aol.com Subject: [RS] YSH and God In a message dated 9/5/2000 8:03:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Norman and Elwestrand write about the lines: << "You stay here and I'll go look for God Not so hard 'cause I know where he's not I will bring him back with me Make him listen, make him see" >> In my view, these lines are the protagonist's attempt to castigate God for allowing the tragedy of human slaughtering in Bosnia and Croatia go on. Given all the brutality and murdering and hateful acts against one another, the protagonist is saying that God couldn't possible be in that place, but if he could he would bring him there and confront him with these terrible sins man is committing against one another and the unmerciful way each has made the other suffer. Powerful stuff, to be sure, and the way Richard sings it puts an exclamation point on those biting, urgent words of the last verse. I think with YSH, Richard in his indomitable way, once again questions the existence of God. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:11:15 -0700 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS Norman wrote: >> I was thinking of how much anger is in those lines. He's saying "Come on God, you want to take me on, then do so already and get it over with." Wow. Two Job songs on one album << I've never understood Job's faith. How can anyone just sit back and let adversity take over? Job was never aware of the "dialog between god and satan," so it's not like he knew what the eventual outcome of his life would be. I guess I just get to a point where I can't acquiesce control to the firmament anymore. A moot point since I don't really have control anyway, but I relate to E's interpretation and the protagonist's getting to the confrontation point -- not taking it lying down any longer. j a c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Thom Bassett Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS I am not sure that the Book of Job, read as a whole, shows that Job just "s[a]t back and let adversity take over." The beginning and ending sections certainly give that appearance, but the balance of the book -- the poetic narratives of speeches by Job and his friends -- I think gives a very different picture. (Fun fact from my seminary days: most scholars think that the central section of the book is the original, with the beginning and ending tacked on much later.) In these sections Job does about everything but passively accept his fate: he cries out for death and a wish never to be born, he rants his bewilderment at his fate, he challenges God to explain why this has happened. After God speaks on reply (notice that God never answers Job's questions), Job is silent until the concluding section, when an utterly different Job appears -- the "happy" Job who is vindicated, but who is useless as a model because we all know that suffering is not always or even often vindicated in this life. On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:11:15 -0700, shindell-list@smoe.org wrote: | Norman wrote: | >> I was thinking of how much anger is in those lines. He's saying "Come on | God, you want to take me on, then do so already and get it over with." | Wow. Two Job songs on one album << | | I've never understood Job's faith. How can anyone just sit back and let | adversity take over? Job was never aware of the "dialog between god and | satan," so it's not like he knew what the eventual outcome of his life would | be. I guess I just get to a point where I can't acquiesce control to the | firmament anymore. A moot point since I don't really have control anyway, | but I relate to E's interpretation and the protagonist's getting to the | confrontation point -- not taking it lying down any longer. | | j a c | "Bears are made of the same dust as we, breathe the same winds and drink the same water. A bear's days are warmed by the same sun, his dwelling overdomed by the same blue sky, and his life turns and ebbs with the same heart-pulsings as ours." - John Muir _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Deb Woodell Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS John (j a c) wrote: >I guess I just get to a point where I can't > acquiesce control to the > firmament anymore. A moot point since I don't > really have control anyway, > but I relate to E's interpretation and the > protagonist's getting to the > confrontation point -- not taking it lying down any > longer. ...Some might say that the Higher Power, or Firmament, or God, or whatever, has control over the reaction to the adversity as well -- as in, knows which buttons to push to get that reaction. Deb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:08:51 -0700 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS > Deb Woodell posed: >> ...Some might say that the Higher Power, or Firmament, or God, or whatever, has control over the reaction to the adversity as well -- as in, knows which buttons to push to get that reaction.<< I'd sure like to entertain more thoughts on spirituality, but can it be tolerated here if it no longer applies specifically to the sotw? OK never mind. I used to think that "the creator" messed with us to help us grow, and then I thought it was for his enjoyment or entertainment, but now I don't believe it's a person with gender or any other human traits at all. I do think that there's powers out there stronger than we are. Do they bring on the storm or do we? I'm not sure, but I will continue to shake my fist at it when I've had enough. j a c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:30:27 -0400 From: "Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS <> Adversity builds character, and I suppose it should be welcomed in that respect. Just as overcoming physical adversity builds physical strength and endurance, overcoming life's adversities helps us to lead stronger lives. Please send donations to: Anthony Robbins 777 Heaven's Gate St. Blue Skies, Manitoba, OU812 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:36:26 -0700 From: Lee Wessman Subject: [RS] storms and quakes Elwestrand put it well. "OK God, you keep screwing with me anyway so lets see what you got." That's exactly the sensation the song conveys. I'm throwing my hands up here. Life is beyond my control, anyway, so let's see what happens when I surrender to the full force of nature. Being a Californian, I've had my quake experiences, too. All my life I had wanted to go to a World Series game. In 89, the Bay Area series comes -- Giants against the A's. I pay a scalper $160 and I'm sitting on the first base line and the bunting is waving and it's 5:04 when I feel a wave of nausea and figure I've eaten a bad hot-dog. Suddenly, the world begins to shake violently, and it sounds like being underneath a passing train. A few rows in front of me, the pillar that holds up the upper deck is rocking back and forth like a tree in the wind. And at that moment, it becomes clear that the upper deck, with tons and tons of concrete, is going to come down on top of us. I always fantasized that if I were ever in a natural disaster like that, I would have reflexes like a cat and I would bolt to safety. But instead, I had reflexes just like a rabbit in headlights, absolutely paralyzed with fear, and paralyzed by a sense of being at the mercy of forces mightier than anything I ever imagined existed. For weeks afterward, I was somnambular, just sleep walking and dazed. I often get that sense when I listen to Richard's songs -- that his characters are caught up in big circumstances that way. Maybe I'm just projecting my own experiences. But when an artist lets us project ourselves into his or her work, well, that's what makes it art. - -lee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:02:48 -0700 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS >> Adversity builds character, and I suppose it should be welcomed in that respect. Just as overcoming physical adversity builds physical strength and endurance, overcoming life's adversities helps us to lead stronger lives.<< I agree, but you can't sit back and let the "magic" happen, you have to react to it, do something with the circumstances. Growing takes effort. An example is that my brother and I have had very similar, hard circumstances in our lives. He's on his second strike in the felony penal system and I'm a productive, contributing member of society. Ed you're funny! >> Please send donations to: > Anthony Robbins > 777 Heaven's Gate St. > Blue Skies, Manitoba, OU812<< > The check's in the mail. j a c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:29:09 -0400 From: "Dupas, Edward (E.M.)" Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS <> I know, it's my way of dealing with adversity. - -----Original Message----- From: Clary, John (CLRY) [mailto:CLRY@chevron.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:03 PM To: 'shindell-list@smoe.org' Subject: RE: [RS] SOTW - WFTS >> Adversity builds character, and I suppose it should be welcomed in that respect. Just as overcoming physical adversity builds physical strength and endurance, overcoming life's adversities helps us to lead stronger lives.<< I agree, but you can't sit back and let the "magic" happen, you have to react to it, do something with the circumstances. Growing takes effort. An example is that my brother and I have had very similar, hard circumstances in our lives. He's on his second strike in the felony penal system and I'm a productive, contributing member of society. Ed you're funny! >> Please send donations to: > Anthony Robbins > 777 Heaven's Gate St. > Blue Skies, Manitoba, OU812<< > The check's in the mail. j a c ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V2 #242 ***********************************