From: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org (shindell-list-digest) To: shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: shindell-list-digest V2 #231 Reply-To: shindell-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-shindell-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk shindell-list-digest Wednesday, August 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 231 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard [Elwestrand ] Re: [RS] Dar & Richard [jalvo@mbay.net (John Alvord)] [RS] Cuteness ["Dave McKay" ] RE: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] Re: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard [Rongrittz@aol.com] Re: [RS] Cuteness [Elwestrand ] RE: [RS] Cuteness ["Clary, John (CLRY)" ] [RS] The Ocean [Kerry Bernard ] RE: [RS] Dar & Richard [Katrin.Uhl@t-online.de (Katrin Uhl)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:26:13 -0400 From: Elwestrand Subject: Re: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard ________________________________________________ Get your own "800" number - Free Free voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag - ---- On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Rongrittz@aol.com (Rongrittz@aol.com) wrote: > >> Ok, I don't want this to be a flame and I am going to try to keep > from cursing here only because of that, but that is a totally sexist, > demeaning, ridiculous thing to say. And it says volumes about the person > who said it. You would call an artist of this caliber, and a feminist no > less, a "cute girl?" << > > I read John's post VERY carefully, and he's saying nothing of the sort. He says exactly that, it is a verbatim quote. Of course everything he said is his opinion. That's all we have to offer around here. But, I can disagree with it and with yours. > Hmmmm . . . come to think of it, aren't you the same person who, on this > very list, originally opined that Richard was a mediocre guitar player? Never said a word about Richard being mediocre and I am not going down this road again. I will admit that I was involved in a discussion of the various types of guitar players and their relative technical ability. But that is all I will ever say on the subject I assure you. So feel free to sling some more hash at me, but I will not step in that fray ever again. And I am not defending Dar's playing, though I could. I am defending Dar's status as a very accomplished WOMAN. Who should not be dismissed as someone only entertaining enough for a cheap date. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:28:08 GMT From: jalvo@mbay.net (John Alvord) Subject: Re: [RS] Dar & Richard On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:31:30 -0700, "Clary, John (CLRY)" wrote: >I am guessing that these next words will be taken wrong because I really do >love Dar. This whole Dar/Richard thing is funny. I wasn't going to even >get into it, but since we should be able to let other's opinions live for >what they are, here's mine: I think Richard is better in every way except >being the cute girl next door. I mean, Dar is wonderful, don't get me >wrong. She is like my friends growing up who dabbled in guitar and singing. >She is not polished, her voice is weak (in a good way!), and she plays very >simple stuff. And now all of a sudden 600,000 16 year old girls "get" her. >This is a good thing as Dar's perspective can be a good influence on 16 year >old girls. I'm not the target audience. Last time I saw Dar, it was like I >was the only man there. Not a bad thing. Richard is incredible, and a role >model for me as a songwriter and performer. Dar does something completely >different for me. I bet Richard would never sit in my living room and jam, >but Dar might. Also, Dar would be willing to help me in the kitchen with my >latest tofu creation and she'd help me eat it too. Dar, if you're >listening, the wine is breathing and the guitars are tuned... If 600,000 teenage girls suddenly get Dar, some good portion will pick up CryCryCry and who knows where that could lead... john alvord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:35:29 +0100 From: "Dave McKay" Subject: [RS] Cuteness > You would call an artist of this caliber, and a feminist no less, > a "cute girl?" I have news for you. Some of Dar's fans have crushes on her. They think she's cute. They think she has a lovely smile. They think she looks stunning in those sleeveless dresses. And those are just the women. Perhaps you could outline just exactly whom I can call "cute". What calibre of artist should I avoid? How much feminism should they be displaying? I think Jess Klein and Kris Delmhorst are two of the cutest singers in folk. I fell for their music based on what I heard of them, not what I saw, and I will continue to support them so long as they continue to make *music* that I enjoy. That they are cute is a bonus. I have heard tales told about crushes on Ellis Paul and Cliff Eberhardt that would make your toes curl. Some women out there regard them as cute. Isn't it sexist to berate a man for innocently stating the opinion that Dar looks nice and it might be nice to have her around for dinner, but let any number of women off with expressing the desire to look up the legs of Ellis Paul's pants? Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:41:19 -0700 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard Elwestrand said: >> I am defending Dar's status as a very accomplished WOMAN. Who should not be dismissed as someone only entertaining enough for a cheap date.<< Who said anything about dating her? j a c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:47:17 EDT From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: Re: [RS] Re: Dar & Richard She said: >> You would call an artist of this caliber, and a feminist no less, a "cute girl?" << Me said: >> I read John's post VERY carefully, and he's saying nothing of the sort. << She said: >> He says exactly that, it is a verbatim quote. << Me says: Point taken. But what I meant was that while that may be what John SAID, in so many words, he did not mean it to imply that she was cute at the expense of other terrific qualities. I've read nothing here -- in ANYONE'S posts -- that implies that Dar is anything but a talented and accomplished singer, songwriter, entertainer, humanitarian, role model and all around good person. Probably the second-best singer/songwriter out there today. ;-) And me now says: Maybe we can drop this and return to the Richard Shindell Discussion List. Just an idea. RG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:03:34 -0400 From: Elwestrand Subject: Re: [RS] Cuteness Isn't it sexist to berate a man for innocently stating > the opinion that Dar looks nice and it might be nice to have her > around for dinner, but let any number of women off with expressing the > desire to look up the legs of Ellis Paul's pants? The problem is that the "cute" was combined with a dismissal of her music as inferior to Richard's. So for instance if you said, "Ellis Paul's music ain't as good as Richard's, but he can eat crackers in my bed anytime." You would be dismissing his music (his soul?) and saying that his value to you came from his apprearance and or personality. And then, I am sure the Ellis Paul contingent would get all bent out of shape, too. It is absolutely fine to say that Dar or Kris or Lucy or Ellis or Richard are beautiful(they all are on so many levels) or if you have too "cute." It is however problematic to me if that's where you find their value. Which by the way I am not saying that you or anyone elses does. Certain comments however, are more sensitive than others. For instance John might have said: I am a huge Richard fan and Dar is not as important to me musically. I do however, think she is a genuinely cool person and I would enjoy meeting and talking to her. I also think she's beautiful. See? Well I hope you do. E ________________________________________________ Get your own "800" number - Free Free voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:07:14 -0700 From: "Clary, John (CLRY)" Subject: RE: [RS] Cuteness Dave added: >> I have news for you. Some of Dar's fans have crushes on her. They think she's cute. They think she has a lovely smile. They think she looks stunning in those sleeveless dresses. << Argghh... You know what? I do think Dar is attractive. But that's not what I was talking about. I'll save that explanation for my next post. >>Isn't it sexist to berate a man for innocently stating the opinion that Dar looks nice and it might be nice to have her around for dinner, but let any number of women off with expressing the desire to look up the legs of Ellis Paul's pants?<< The reason I tuned my guitars and uncorked a bottle of wine was so that I could re-introduce Dar to the acoustic guitar. It was not an invite for dinner. I'm not interested in dinner or Dar as a date. j a c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:12:37 -0400 From: Kerry Bernard Subject: [RS] The Ocean This is neither the Dar list nor the Peter list, but... Norman wrote: >Norman, who still wants to hear Peter Mulvey's cover of "The Ocean" You can! Go to: http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/artist_detail.cfm?artist_i d=MULVEYPETE Tune into his June 8, 2000 performance (the second of the two performances), almost 33 minutes into it, and you'll see and hear his version. Also, if you want to see what this boy is truly all about, go back one song (about 30 minutes in) and watch/listen to his incredible guitar instrumental, Black Rabbit. I could watch him play that song all day long (it's just as mesmerizing to watch as it is to hear - such incredible guitar work...). Kerry :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:44:38 +0200 From: Katrin.Uhl@t-online.de (Katrin Uhl) Subject: RE: [RS] Dar & Richard > Norman exited: > > <> oh, you haven't yet? You've got to hear this, it is just so amazing! Totally different song! Pat said: > I *have* heard Peter play this and it was nothing less than stunning!! yup. I hope he records this one day. (Kerry?) Now if we could get Richard to play that song as well, that would be something! Katrin ____________________________________________ we come to pass not to stay all that matters anyway is what will follow you Peter Mulvey (all the way home) ------------------------------ End of shindell-list-digest V2 #231 ***********************************