From: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org (seven-seas-digest) To: seven-seas-digest@smoe.org Subject: seven-seas-digest V2 #428 Reply-To: seven-seas@smoe.org Sender: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org Precedence: bulk seven-seas-digest Wednesday, June 11 2003 Volume 02 : Number 428 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:43:25 -0500 From: "Martha Smith" Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Adams" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) > I think Mac's a pretty intuitive writer. I know that he tends to write > his lyrics pretty quickly. > Let's > face it, anyone who thinks young Mr. Mac actually had specific, > heavy-handed artistic/symbolic intentions behind "c-c-c-cucumber" has > clearly eaten a few too many moonbars. > I have never said he did. The fact of it is(and I am probably going against the tide again), I have never considered "c-c-c-cucumber" as one of his better efforts. :) I don't think he deals in "specific, heavy-handed artistic/symbolic intentions" -- though judging by the way he uses them, certain images and words do seem to have particular meanings for him. This gets into the very broad area of the role of the intuitive/subconscious in creative thought. The 18th Century saw creating works of art as primarily an intellectual, rational process. 19th Century romanticism emphasized the irrational/ subconscious as the source of creativity. The greatest critic of the age, John Ruskin, thought both processes play a role. He saw the artist as an individual of heightened perceptions who is able to convey these perceptions to others. This can be quite intuitive...generally is. - - K :) ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:11:03 -0400 From: "Chris Adams" Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) Or, conversely, it can be a buncha bullsh!t: I mean, if I write (and I'll come up with this off the top of my head, right now): "The bees are burning The trees are turning Autumn's tide is trynna hide From the summer's bitter learning" One can choose to read that with as much intent, levity, or whatever as one wants, but, "creative unconscious" or otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it's just some crap I spewed out without a moment's forethought. To me, it's meaningless...evocative, maybe, but...anyone who spends any time whatsoever interpreting that...well, that's their hangup. - --Chris A. "Martha Smith" Sent by: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org 11-Jun-2003 01:43 PM Please respond to seven-seas To: cc: Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Adams" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) > I think Mac's a pretty intuitive writer. I know that he tends to write > his lyrics pretty quickly. > Let's > face it, anyone who thinks young Mr. Mac actually had specific, > heavy-handed artistic/symbolic intentions behind "c-c-c-cucumber" has > clearly eaten a few too many moonbars. > I have never said he did. The fact of it is(and I am probably going against the tide again), I have never considered "c-c-c-cucumber" as one of his better efforts. :) I don't think he deals in "specific, heavy-handed artistic/symbolic intentions" -- though judging by the way he uses them, certain images and words do seem to have particular meanings for him. This gets into the very broad area of the role of the intuitive/subconscious in creative thought. The 18th Century saw creating works of art as primarily an intellectual, rational process. 19th Century romanticism emphasized the irrational/ subconscious as the source of creativity. The greatest critic of the age, John Ruskin, thought both processes play a role. He saw the artist as an individual of heightened perceptions who is able to convey these perceptions to others. This can be quite intuitive...generally is. - - K :) ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:09:11 -0400 From: Red Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) At 02:11 PM 6/11/03 -0400, you wrote: > >"The bees are burning >The trees are turning >Autumn's tide is trynna hide >From the summer's bitter learning" Wow man....that's deep! ;-) Seriously tho....that can mean so much to someone... or as you said...nothing at all! It's all in the way the listener/reader percieves it and whether or not they can relate to it. Red ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:06:59 -0400 From: "Chris Adams" Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) Absolutely. - --Chris A. Red Sent by: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org 11-Jun-2003 04:09 PM Please respond to seven-seas To: seven-seas@smoe.org cc: Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) At 02:11 PM 6/11/03 -0400, you wrote: > >"The bees are burning >The trees are turning >Autumn's tide is trynna hide >From the summer's bitter learning" Wow man....that's deep! ;-) Seriously tho....that can mean so much to someone... or as you said...nothing at all! It's all in the way the listener/reader percieves it and whether or not they can relate to it. Red ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:44:54 -0400 From: "Chris Adams" Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) Yeah, it's like "Sweet Jane" by the Velvets...I mean, if you can figure out what Lou's going on about, yer a better man than I...I mean, it has something to do with the inherent value of life, I guess...in places...but "riding a stutz bearcat, Jim, those were different times, the poets studies rules of verse, and the ladies just rolled their eyes..."--what the hell is that? And who or what exactly is sweet jane? And ultimately, who gives a crap? It doesn't diminish from the value of the song at all...in fact, it lends it a certain mystery...as if you walked into a conversation midway through...it doesn't decrease from the enjoyment of it, present a code that needs to be broken. It's like going to a restaurant...you place an order and a meal's brought to you. You can sit around and intellectualize about the creation that's sitting before you until it goes cold, or you can just do the sensible thing and eat and enjoy it. There's no great "meaning" to a good chicken tikka masala, even though it is, I suppose, a sort of communication...from the chef to you. (Or perhaps from the chicken..."I died for you.") A painting is just paint arranged on a canvas. A book is merely words on a page. Music is various patterns of sound. These are the prime elements of these forms. Any presumptions about the artists' intent lie squarely with the interpreter. And the artist isn't responsible for them. This isn't anything new, either. It's just old-skool 20th centery modernism. The idea that "the artist" is somehow aware of, or has access to "heightened realms of perception" or whatever, is, 9 times outta 10, laughable. Poetry, for example, especially the more recent stuff, is simply the art of fukking around with words until they...erm...DO something. Even if the poet does't "get" it. Which is generally the case. - --Chris A. Peter Charbonneau Sent by: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org 11-Jun-2003 01:19 PM Please respond to seven-seas To: seven-seas@smoe.org, seven-seas@smoe.org cc: Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) well said chris.... I know I've always tailored favorite lyrics to my own situations, interpreting them on my own levels. That's what makes the songs so important to me. I just enjoy the connection made with music I love, lyrically, sonically, or just catching a certain vibe off of what the artist is trying to do. At 12:33 PM 6/11/2003 -0400, Chris Adams wrote: >I think Mac's a pretty intuitive writer. I know that he tends to write >his lyrics pretty quickly. ("Little Dwarf", anyone?) And I don't think >he gets too hung up on "meaning," particularly. I think it's more about >creating a vibe, to be honest. I mean, certainly there are songs that are >"about" things, but generally I think he writes what comes to him and, >after an edit or two, lets 'em go. Again, this isn't saying they're >meaningless, any more than any type of self-expression is. (EG. Jackson >Pollock painted intuitively, in the moment, and, although you'd be >hard-pressed to determine a pre-conceived "meaning" for the painting, it >still has an undeniable cause, purpose, and effect.) I think the mark of >a great writer--songwriter or otherwise--is to be able to capture >something complex and/or personal--be it an idea, or an emotion, or >whatever--and express it simply, in human terms, with a fairly universal >appeal. And Mac's a master at that. > >That said, I think there are several obvious lyrical themes running >through "Slideling", especially on songs like "Seasons" and "Kansas." > >I think people tend to over-analyze lyrics a little bit, especially with >artists they really dig. I can see how the artist might feel flattered, >but at the same time, I'm certain that it's the listener's natrual >interpretation that's most important, on an individualized basis. Let's >face it, anyone who thinks young Mr. Mac actually had specific, >heavy-handed artistic/symbolic intentions behind "c-c-c-cucumber" has >clearly eaten a few too many moonbars. > >--Chris A. > > > > >"Martha Smith" >Sent by: owner-seven-seas@smoe.org >11-Jun-2003 12:19 PM >Please respond to seven-seas > > > To: > cc: > Subject: Re: seven-seas The Art of Mac aka Mac Art(hur) > > > > His lyrics for WAYGTDWYL, Flowers and Slideling seem effortless maybe >even > > easy to be written > > by Ian McCulloch, > > > > His lyrics have become more plain-spoken, but I suspect that may not >translate into "easy to be written". It seems to me his writing has depth. >For example, I think "Burn For Me" -- one of my favorite songs -- can and >probably should be interpreted several ways. Read it over and contemplate. > >- Kristin :) > > > >====================================== >http://www.bunnymenlist.com > >====================================== > > > >====================================== >http://www.bunnymenlist.com > >====================================== ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ====================================== http://www.bunnymenlist.com ====================================== ------------------------------ End of seven-seas-digest V2 #428 ********************************