From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V11 #42 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Friday, June 30 2006 Volume 11 : Number 042 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [pt] Re: details about the rarities box set! [e m ] Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! [wojbearpig ] Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! [wojbearpig ] Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! [handal@r2d2.reverse.net (Ri] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:43:07 -0700 (PDT) From: e m Subject: Re: [pt] Re: details about the rarities box set! yeah, i will have to agree with both sides here... i love all the odd goodies we have yet to hear, and even curious about alternate versions (although librarian left much to be desired in that department so if it is anything like that...then big whoop), but why all the album version of album tracks that we have on other collections? she should have just released rarities in one box and then another remastered LE/UTP/BFP set. it is a bit odd to mix them up as has been done here. if management/label wants to milk us fans, they can easily do so by releasing all the older live complete shows that we know tori has :) and i'll be glad to be milked for that :) -ellen T Taitt wrote: well it's been ages since i posted, but for some reason i felt compelled to say that i couldn't be less interested in buying this. what kind of a collection is this, and don't these selections belie the whole point of a box set??? sometimes tori's choices confound me... tanisha. http://tanishataitt.ca Debut album Overflow available now. - --------------------------------- Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:59:45 +0000 From: "Tom xxxxx" Subject: Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! Thanks for backing me up, Katherine. I expected to get flamed. I actually didn't notice the missing Siren and Operation Peter Pan, which really should be here. And what about Mountain?! That one is nearly impossible to get and I've only heard it once. Instead, we get stuff we already have. This is a disappointment, and I, too, wonder how much of this is driven by the label trying to squeeze dollars out of the fans. I think a 2-3 disk set that just had all the b-sides, unreleased songs, and maybe some covers and live tracks would've been perfect. Sigh. Tom M. "Can you Mr. Bush light the sage" - --- Tori Amos, "Indian Summer" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:15:22 -0700 From: Dana Clark Subject: [pt] Re: precious-things-digest V11 #40 I totally agree with you, Tom, about the rarities box set. As someone who's never been into buying remixes (I think the only remix set I've ever liked was Bjork's "Telegraph," which was one disc - not five), this seems like a colossal let down to me. I totally want maybe half a disc worth of what's on here, and I'm sure the rest is interesting, but $75?!?! I mean, I didn't even like TOAL that much. To me, it was just like she fixed a bunch of things that weren't broken to begin with - will this just be TOAL times five? With a super secret song from the past (Zero Point) that I'm STOKED to hear, but not enough to pay 75 clams? I really wanted to be excited, I swear! =( Dana On Jun 27, 2006, at 10:20 PM, precious-things-digest wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:19:07 +0000 > From: "Tom xxxxx" > Subject: RE: [pt] details about the rarities box set! > > Wow! I'm actually disappointed. I have no interest in remixes and > alternate > versions. I just want the bsides and unreleased tracks. And where's > "Song > for Eric?" I feel like I have to buy it for the true rarities, but > I don't > like that I'm paying for yet another version of "Sugar," "Crucify," > etc. > > I hate to sound cranky or like a bad fan, but really, all I wanted > was a > bside and unreleased track compliation that would've been somewhat > affordable. This is a lot of money to spend. > > Cheers, > Tom M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:46:43 -0400 From: wojbearpig Subject: Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! one time at band camp, Dana Clark (dclark@pdx.edu) said: >I totally agree with you, Tom, about the rarities box set. As someone >who's never been into buying remixes (I think the only remix set I've >ever liked was Bjork's "Telegraph," which was one disc - not five), i get the feeling that these "alternate mixes" are not remixes in the dance remix sense. i'd be thrilled if the alternate mixes in this set were something like the alternate mix of KaTe bush's "hounds of love". that is practically a completely different song from the original -- not just an long beat track with some clips from the song grafted on top of it. but i'm not holding my breath. i can't imagine that tori and company toyed with so many songs in that fashion back then. more likely, we're talking about smaller differences in instrument choices or volume levels or that sort of thing rather than a completely different treatment of those old songs -- though i'm willing to be wrong! ;) >this seems like a colossal let down to me. I totally want maybe half >a disc worth of what's on here, and I'm sure the rest is interesting, >but $75?!?! chances are that no one will have to pay the full $75 for this set. well, unless one foolishly pre-orders from the tori store. ;) it'll be on sale when it's released and everyone should be able to get it for a lot less. and maybe folks will even be able to buy single tracks from itunes or the other digital music stores. as for its contents, i'm a little perplexed as well. on one hand, i was completely floored by the expanse of the set. i was expecting it to be a two (or at most three) disc set of b-sides and non-album tracks which was incomplete with one or two new songs tossed into to sweeten the pot for collector types. instead, it's a five disc set which addresses (albeit still incompletely) all of her work to date. there are several new songs, demos and these alternate mixes which could, potentially, be very interesting. on the other, as others have pointed out, there is a lot of stuff on here which is not new at all. and many things that were expected are not there (mountain, etc.). though, to be fair, this was never billed as a rarities collection. the first we heard of it was from that digital release schedule which just listed it as "tori amos rarities box". but that's just a description for internal-use by the record label. it shouldn't have been the basis for any expectation about what this release would be. i get the feeling that this project is a mash-up of several product ideas: album remasters, b-side collection, career retrospective. it's almost as if they were exploring all of the possibilities and then decided to combine them into a frankencollection. i don't know what the reason for that would be but i'm sure it was a financial decision of one sort of another: either the record label wouldn't release all of the product ideas separately or, if you're a cynic, the pieces were combined to maximize the bilking of her fans. i can see either but don't really have any basis for knowing what the genesis of this collection was. it's amusing that tori and company can never quite seem to focus on one thing at a time. if i remember correctly, _to venus and back_ started out life as a b-sides collection, morphed into a b-sides/live release and, when tori was suddenly inspired to write new songs, turned into the studio/live set that it ended up being. and the live disc was still done half-assed (soundchecks on a live album? a strange selection of songs? no flow which is, like, the most important thing about her concerts? oy!) i think the best word to describe this thing is "anthology". it's an overview of tori's career so far and, as such, can't be complete. but it does offer a fair number of previously-unavailable material, some of which is VERY interesting. and i do think it will be a good listen to hear that stuff in the context of the previously-available songs. so, yeah, while i would prefer a concise, complete set of b-sides, non-album tracks and unreleased material, i think i'll be pretty happy with this in the long run. and keep in mind: this does not preclude the future release of album remasters and other collections. how many times have other bands issued "definitive" versions only to have them supplanted a couple years later by "more definitive" issues? woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:02:40 -0400 From: wojbearpig Subject: Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! one time at band camp, Tom xxxxx (getula@hotmail.com) said: >Thanks for backing me up, Katherine. I expected to get flamed. I actually i don't know why people are so worried about critiquing this collection. NO ONE should be expected to accept lock, stock and barrel everything tori does. we're not automatons. we're fans. and while that can mean slavish devotion, it also means that we can discuss what we don't like about her, her work or her decisions. there is room on precious-things for both kinds of fans. there is not room for those who are intolerant of each others' opinions. >didn't notice the missing Siren and Operation Peter Pan, which really >should be here. there are no songs from any soundtrack in this collection. i'm not sure if that was a copyright/licensing/royalty decision but it would seem likely. so that accounts for the lack of siren (which is a shame) though it's not that hard of a song to track down -- pretty sure the great expectations soundtrack is still in print or at least available used. operation peter pan seems like a no-brainer too, especially since it's so tiny. you think it could be squeezed on there somewhere! >And what about Mountain?! That one is nearly impossible to get and I've >only heard it once. it's not impossible to get but it was only available on scarlet's web so all there is is captures or recordings of the webstream. a mp3 is at yessaid . i agree this is perhaps the most glaring omission though -- it's a great song that really should have been on scarlet's hidden treasures. woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:37:36 -0400 (EDT) From: handal@r2d2.reverse.net (Richard Handal) Subject: Re: [pt] details about the rarities box set! woj spoke to us: > as for its contents, i'm a little perplexed as well. "Mixed concept" might be the kindest way to describe it--a "Frankencollection," for sure. I love the first disc's concept to expand LE, and to carry on that idea through more albums would have made sense to me, although if taken to its logical conclusion, that would have made for too large a set. Doing a different set with b-sides that didn't fit on the the expanded album discs would then have made sense. I have the impression that she had some things on the shelf that she wanted out, and this seemed like the time to fit them together into a set along with more of a career retrospective concept. I'm intrigued by thinking how the LE era songs may have been remixed. There's a place about 2:30 into Leather where the piano comes way up in the mix in a decidedly overt manner. I can see playing around with decisions such as that, but I also notice the remixed songs tend to be ones with strings. Do the strings now become more prominent? Why is Take to the Sky listed with its original title added in parentheses? There's nothing said about its having been remixed. Is that just a nod to how she originally wanted it, but was implored (or forced) to change it? Why not add Somebody Leave the Light On to Mother? Was she happier with that name change? > on one hand, i was completely floored by the expanse of the set. i was > expecting it to be a two (or at most three) disc set of b-sides and > non-album tracks which was incomplete with one or two new songs tossed > into to sweeten the pot for collector types. I find it interesting to see what people were expecting this to be. This kind of thing often skews toward being a Rorschach test of the person's wish list. I didn't hear enough said early on about what this stuff was gonna be to give much of a sense of its design, and if I had, I'd have expected it to change a lot by the time it had been completed, anyway. And although I didn't notice any flaming by *my* definition in this discussion, I admit to having been able to tell from seeing specific names of some posting that they were complaining, even before reading what they said. I think preconcept and expectation make it easier to complain, and I feel doing such things constitutes a mindset. It's often more of a challenge to find value in something we might be able to appreciate on its own terms once we become familiar with it, than it is to instantly recognize that something wasn't the thing we had been hoping for. Perhaps when eventually experiencing an unexpected thing, one can often find unexpected value. > instead, it's a five disc set which addresses (albeit still > incompletely) all of her work to date. Right. > there are several new songs, demos and these alternate mixes which > could, potentially, be very interesting. Yes. > it's amusing that tori and company can never quite seem to focus on > one thing at a time. if i remember correctly, _to venus and back_ > started out life as a b-sides collection, morphed into a b-sides/live > release and, when tori was suddenly inspired to write new songs, > turned into the studio/live set that it ended up being. With the release of Piece By Piece we have a fair idea of the variety of forces at work that shaped Venus. None of the contractual/legal nightmare stuff applies this time, and the way the b-sides are included in this set may have helped them deal with the sonic workarounds they felt would have been needed had they all been next to one another on the same disc. > and the live disc was still done half-assed (soundchecks on a live > album? But each *note* was PERFECT! Ha. It amazes me how someone who understands the importance of feel and overall emotion, lets herself become enmired in the perfection of detail as much as she can. > a strange selection of songs? no flow which is, like, the most > important thing about her concerts? oy!) Funny. People rarely mention this idea about the concerts, but I agree with woj that this is one of their most meaningful aspects. This is one reason the people who complain about this song or that over the course of a tour or run of concerts typically strike me as missing much of the point in the first place. > i think the best word to describe this thing is "anthology". it's an > overview of tori's career so far and, as such, can't be complete. Yes, and I've spoken enough with her about reissues to feel I'm not going out on a limb when I say that "legacy" had no small part in how these items were chosen. She clearly wants to shine a light on these selections, in no small part, because she's proud of them, and wants to be remembered by them. I'd like to think the masterpiece that is Boys for Pele will grow to have its own legacy, outside of only the songs she included from it here. In some ways, Pele's bigger than her anyhow. Just finished up a listen to the order of the first disc (although lacking the remixed versions), and I can attest to how well the flow of songs works, especially from Gun on. Good deal. > and keep in mind: this does not preclude the future release of album > remasters and other collections. I think one more disc of b-sides would stick a fork in the need for any further rereleases! Please, God, let her continue to look, listen, and move forward! She's just moving into her mid-forties, for chrissake! If Keith Richards can fall out of a tree in his sixties and keep working, surely Tori has a long way yet to go! Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V11 #42 *************************************