From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V10 #19 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Wednesday, February 2 2005 Volume 10 : Number 019 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori [Kurt658@aol.] Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori [Jeffrey Clar] BfP ["Giovanni Mantilla" ] Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori [e m ] Re: The Beekeeper - My faith restored. [Richard Handal ] (no subject) [TORIBREE@aol.com] Re: album preferences [Cyndi S Crawford ] Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori [ChaseTornado] My Favorite Albums in Order... [ChaseTornadoes@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:29:08 EST From: Kurt658@aol.com Subject: Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori i consider Choirgirl to be my favorite album and it was the album that introduced me to tori. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:49:00 -0500 From: Jeffrey Clark Subject: Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori My experience completely supports that. An ex-girlfriend of mine got me listening to Tori when we were together in 97 or so, not too horribly long after Pele came out. I of course, started with Little Earthquakes, and thought it was incredible. The first new release after I started listening to Tori was Choirgirl which to this day and probably forever will be my absolute favorite of Tori's albums. While some of my most favorite songs lie on other albums (Precious Things, Siren, Caught a Lite Sneeze), there's just something about Choirgirl to me. Maria Aguirre wrote: >Hey EWFs, > >I've thorougly enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on TBK and other of >T's albums. I love when this list generates this kind of discussion. >Anyway, I have a hypothesis: I believe that there is a a direct >relationship between one's favorite album and the era during which one >discovered an artist. For example, my favorite Tori album (though I am >obssessed with all of them dearly, except SLG, that is the album which >we do not speak of) is Boys for Pele. I just adore it and fully >emotionally connected with it, as I have with most of Tori's work... >but something about that album just feels more quintessential Tori to >me. However, I didn't discover Tori until 1995, and that album's >release coincided with the begining of my love affair (obssession) >with Tori's music. Does this make sense? In other words, I think that >most people's favorite Tori album is usually (not always of course) >correlated with the time period of their first Tori experiences. I >have a feeling this hypothesis applies to other musical artists. Any >thoughts on this? Any of your experiences support or refute this? > >in loving kindness, >~~Maria ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:18:19 +0000 From: "Giovanni Mantilla" Subject: BfP Hi everyone, I usually tend to lurk, but given that these sort of discussions rarely ever occur anymore in the list, I thought I'd come out from underneath my rock. I've had ambivalent, changing feelings about BfP throughout the years. Initially, CALS, Talula and Hey Jupiter were the songs that made me get into Tori, along with that MTV Unplugged special. I went out and meant to get the album, but I too found it to be too strange and dark. Mind you, it was a very rough time for me personally, I was discovering a lot of things about myself and my personality and was still very much a teenager with too much religion-related guilt. I remember I actually did buy the damn thing (along with LE and Utp) but couldn't actually listen to it for a while. It freaked me out that my mother could find it, see the cover, the artwork and then the name of the songs... and something like "Father Lucifer" doesn't exactly help. I remember in order to keep the CD I actually scratched the song's name off the CD surface. Freaky but resourceful. I grew to actually ADORE the CD. There's not one song on that CD that I find lame or mediocre. Actually, some of the most difficult songs on it, like "Little Amsterdam" and "Not The Red Baron", are actually quite pleasant, if sometimes painful (on an emotional level) to listen to. CALS is still my favorite song on it... but I think the whole thing is just brilliant. And I do agree, "Putting the Damage On" is one of Tori's most beautiful songs ever. I don't think I connect to a Tori album now quite the way I did then. Maybe it's just 'cause I've grown a bit and my feelings and life in general have changed a lot since the BfP days. But I still adore Tori and her music and I don't think I can ever stop appreciating it. I'm quite thrilled about The Beekeper, I'm sure it will be good. "Sleeps with Butterflies" is a bit harmless and almost too pretty, but that doesn't make it a bad tune either. As far as picking my favorite Tori albums in order... I woud have to say that my favorite two would be Little Earthquakes and Under The Pink. Then, Boys for Pele tied with Choirgirl. Venus was very nice (especially for songs like "Spring Haze"). I don't listen to StrangeLittleGirl much but there are at least 3 or 4 songs on that record that I love. Scarlet's Walk is a beautiful album but I never connected deeply with it. I loved Sorta Fairytale and most of the songs on it, but it doesn't strike an inner chord like the others do, d'you know what I mean? Ah well, I'll stop babbling now. Thanks for bringing up interesting things to discuss. Take care all, Giovanni _________________________________________________________________ Fotos - MSN Fotos das virtuelle Fotoalbum. Allen Freunden zeigen oder einfach ausdrucken: http://www.msn.de/antispam/prevention/junkmailfilter Schlu_ mit Spam - MSN hilft Ihnen hier weiter. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:31:45 -0800 (PST) From: e m Subject: Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori this has been an interesting discussion! i am amazed that one little remark spread into this whole dialogue on the value that BFP has for each individual fan. i hate to burst your bubble, maria, but i got into tori at the time of LE, saw her perform live in 94 for the first time, and i cannot say BFP is my favorite b/c i love them all differently, but I must say I think BFP is tori's masterpiece. So I don't go with your theory. sorry. Something interesting about BFP that I have noticed is that all my friends that are studied musicians seem to connect to this album, I think that speaks to something about Pele's musicianship, and that also may have played a role for me in my appreciation b/c i could hear it more through their ears. Yes the lyrics appear to be nonsensical at times, but they have poetry and rythmn of their own. the words create a music of their own and add another dimension to the songs just by their sound and the mood they create. that is why i love them at least. they are more than just lyrics. they are music. but what gets me time and time again is who well done and passionate this album is. you get a sense that the music is number one here and you can hear how passionate tori was about creating this album in every note. maybe since it was her first time self producing on her own, she had a lot of fire in her to put into it's production, not unlike the fire she must have had for the songwriting of LE. it was something new to do musically and she hadn't had prior success to rest on. a song does not have to be long or well developed to have beauty to it. i LOVE the complex layers of sound on many of the pele tracks, but some of the most beautiful songs ever written have also been the most simple and the combination of the two just adds for variety of ingredients that blended so well on pele. if each of the 18 tracks were huge complex tunes it would've been even harder to swallow. the Hey Jupiter's on the album are just as key element to the whole as the father lucifer's. it is a journey musically. pele is meant to be heard as a whole, not track by track, although many of them stand beautifully on their own, you can appreciate them more when you hear how they fit together. but not everyone needs to appreciate its greatness. that is the wonderful thing about tori. she only writes an album once, and so there are a lot of different albums with different moods and song writing styles to connect to. and i get that pele is a challenging one for a lot of people to connect to, especially for its darkness, and yet the same elements that repels many people from pele attracts others. i guess this goes along with the idea that every song out there has at least one person who for them it is their favourite song, and likely just as equally another person for whom it is their least favourite. - -eleni - --- Maria Aguirre wrote: > I've thorougly enjoyed reading everyone's opinions > on TBK and other of > T's albums. I love when this list generates this > kind of discussion. > Anyway, I have a hypothesis: I believe that there is > a a direct > relationship between one's favorite album and the > era during which one > discovered an artist. For example, my favorite Tori > album (though I am > obssessed with all of them dearly, except SLG, that > is the album which > we do not speak of) is Boys for Pele. I just adore > it and fully > emotionally connected with it, as I have with most > of Tori's work... > but something about that album just feels more > quintessential Tori to > me. However, I didn't discover Tori until 1995, and > that album's > release coincided with the begining of my love > affair (obssession) > with Tori's music. Does this make sense? In other > words, I think that > most people's favorite Tori album is usually (not > always of course) > correlated with the time period of their first Tori > experiences. I > have a feeling this hypothesis applies to other > musical artists. Any > thoughts on this? Any of your experiences support > or refute this? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:42:17 -0600 From: "Melissa Olges" Subject: album preferences Maria wrote: > Anyway, I have a hypothesis: I believe that there is a a direct > relationship between one's favorite album and the era during which one > discovered an artist. In other words, I think that > most people's favorite Tori album is usually (not always of course) > correlated with the time period of their first Tori experiences. I > have a feeling this hypothesis applies to other musical artists. Any > thoughts on this? Any of your experiences support or refute this? I started listening to Tori in 1994. Pink must have been in my CD player for a solid year. Unfortunately, my fundamentalist mother saw the cover art for Pele and decided Tori was somehow "evil" (Judeo-Christian hang-ups about snakes, I guess -- I'm still not comfortable around them, either) and I was forbidden to own it. I didn't pick it up until I moved out to go to college in 1997. I'd heard the radio releases and seen a lot of her TV appearances to promote Pele, but when I finally sat down and listened to it, I was really surprised by the darkness. It took a *very* long time for Pele to grow on me, but I think that part of that was due to the fact that it took quite some time for me to really figure out who I am. Now, although it's not my favorite, I have a lot of affection for Pele. I agree that it might not be as "lean" as it could have been, but I think that's part of its charm. Tori's said many times that it's about putting together all the pieces of being a woman, and I think part of that is making your own decisions, even if someone else might have made better ones for you. My favorite album, though, is Choirgirl. I think that Kurt Cobain had it right -- there's something that's cosy and comfortable (and a little self-indulgent, but maybe that decadence is *why* it feels so comfortable) about really exploring and lingering in sadness. - --------------------- Maria also wrote: > ... except SLG, that is the album which we do not speak of I guess I like SLG more than most EWFs do. It also took a while to grow on me. I think a lot of the problem with SLG is that Tori didn't write any of the lyrics, and we all know how much we love to explore and find our own meanings in her lyrics. SLG is more about finding meaning in the music, and that's a very different process. I found that listening to the original recordings of the songs along with Tori's recordings helped quite a bit. (I actually made CDs with the original songs inserted between Tori's recordings, and I spent weeks listening to the differences.) I guess the only album I haven't found a niche in is Venus. I *adore* the live disc -- I sing to it in the car any time I'm alone. But I just don't feel anything for the actual studio album. I love some of the songs individually ("Josephine" and "1000 Oceans" are stunning, and "Glory of the 80s" is incredibly fun), but as a whole, the work doesn't really speak to me... yet. - --------------------- Jon informed us of this: > ELVIRA MADIGAN - Angelis Deamonae > > Third album from this one-man Swedish gothic/dark/black metal > force is an interesting one: a cover album unlike any you have heard > before. > Mastermind Marcus H. Madigan tackles tracks from a diverse handful of > artists: > Tori Amos, Chris DeBurgh (4 songs!), Scorpions and others! It seems that Choirgirl is his favorite, too. He's done his own version of "iieee" on his album. It's an interesting take on the song. Not interesting enough to make me want to buy the album, but it's definitely worth the 30 seconds it takes to listen to the clip. Read the story behind the cover here: www.elviramadigan.com/iieee.htm Listen to an audio clip here: www.elviramadigan.com/iieee.mp3 - --------------------- That's all I've got to say for now. Thanks for indulging me -- I've been stuck at home for over two weeks with nobody to talk to but my hubby, and I'm getting to be a little stir-crazy. - - Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:35:06 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: The Beekeeper - My faith restored. Hello: Multiple replies from me cobbled together. It took me a while to make the time to write even reply number one. To Tanisha first. > my favourite song on Pele is Putting The Damage On, which is, in my > opinion, one of Tori's most beautiful songs ever. The others that I > love are Hey Jupiter, Caught A Lite Sneeze, [...] Way Down (which could > have been absolutely stunning as a full-length tune), Talula and > Twinkle. By my way of thinking that's certainly a far cry from "didn't really like," Tanisha! You later went on to add Doughnut Song as another song you liked, too. Ultimately, though, when I think of Pele, I don't think about songs, I think about a journey. Scarlet has, at least on one level, an explicit narrative, while the Pele narrative is not as spelled out. The details of the surface story are inferred and implied. The spirits and emotions are not. They're all in the open and available to be felt. Maybe it's because I find emotional and spiritual journeys to be among the most powerful elements to be had from music that Pele and Scarlet are my two favorite Tori albums. I'm not going to say it's "wrong" or something to pick out songs from these albums to listen to; I've certainly spent my share of time listening to Damage and Twinkle together on repeat, and I *went* to the Island of Iona off the western coast of Scotland and visited the Abbey there because Twinkle spoke so loudly to me in even a mystical fashion, but to experience the fullest emotional and spiritual impact of these two albums they need to be listened to--no, wallowed in--in their entirety. There was good reasoning behind Tori's suggesting a bottle of red wine to go along with listening to Pele. Those here for a long time have seen me talk about dealing with Pele section by section, as if courses of a meal. The separator songs on Pele are perfect times for one to regroup and prepare to go forward into the next set of emotions. Think of them, if you will, as sorbet to cleanse the emotional palate. And as one wouldn't go to a fancy Chinese, French, or Italian restaurant and have a huge multi-course meal every night, neither does it make sense to me that one would listen to all of Pele a lot within a short period of time, that is, unless one is living some of that stuff right then in a way that allows Pele to speak with deep emotion and helps bring about personal catharsis. But if one is prepared to deal with a work of art that unfolds at great length and to connect with the emotions in one section of it, regroup, and then deal emotionally with the next section of it, Pele can be an overpowering journey experience. > i love Tori, but i must say that i found the album as a whole quite > self-indulgent, like she basically threw everything she'd written during > a certain period time on it whether it was a strong song or not. To realize that this "threw everything" on it notion is demonstrably untrue, one need go no further than to count the b-sides for the Pele era. Even discounting Amazing Grace and a couple goof songs like Samurai and Mr. Jim, one still comes up with a lot of other material that was written around the same time as Pele which wasn't on the album. Add in Cooling, too, while you're at it. > i also find it interesting that it was her first self-produced record, > because i strongly suspect that another producer would have suggested > trimming the fat and showcasing the 12 or so most well-developed > compositions. I think enough pieces of the journey would be lost such that the fullest potential impact of Pele would be harmed as a result of something like that. You and I would not be who we are today had we not experienced the traumas we did in eighth grade or something, and in a similar vein, neither would Pele be all *it* is if the full experience weren't there. And in a way, each song being a peak experience of some kind reduces the possibility of going on a journey when listening to the album. There need to be valleys as well as mountaintops. I used to enjoy attending Grateful Dead concerts. I noticed that when they entered into deeper areas of musical investigation, many people took that as their cue to go for a beer or start a conversation with the person sitting next to them. Clearly, although they were at the same concert I was attending, they were there for entirely different reasons. They were there to hear familiar, likable songs, but some of us were there for the journey. The Dead could extemporize as a group in nearly a fugal manner, in ways I've heard otherwise to that degree in Western music only from the Modern Jazz Quartet. I've compared it to watching a tennis match with six players who were using three balls among them, while trying to closely follow all the action. The experience of that was available only to people who knew how to parse much of what they were being presented with from the stage. It required some degree of familiarity with general issues involved with Western tonality which were within the scope of the listening background of nearly everyone who attended those concerts, but the other thing it required was full engagement with and immersion in the music on a moment- to-moment basis, and, for whatever reasons, this was not something most people in the audiences were up to. It's easy to understand why they might *not* have been up to it. It's rare in the West to be challenged by "pop" music to this degree, so it makes perfect sense that most people in the audience of a rock concert don't come by it naturally. (I'm thinking here in terms of the standard academic categories of music: art music--which the average person would call classical--folk music, and popular music, which includes blues, rock, jazz, etc. Let's not argue whether Tori's music is "pop," because within this way of categorizing, it is, and this is what I'm referring to.) I think people who were more accustomed to listening to "classical" music would have had an easier time of hearing the longer forms of what The Dead were doing in some of their longer musical excursions than was the average rock concert-goer, but the "classical" people would often have no expectation of needing to hear this music in such a manner and wouldn't have heard what was available at the concert, a paradigm I feel is shared with the music of Tori Amos. On average, more "classical" listeners would have the tools to appreciate the longer structural aspects of the music than do the rock people, but they likely aren't paying close enough attention to immerse themselves in it because it's off their radar screens--if they are presented with the music at all in the first place. I could go on about this at length, but I'll keep this as short as I can and still make some of my points. Some people simply aren't going to connect with Pele. It's difficult to know why this is beyond realizing that music is a mysterious thing. I do feel, however, that the music is important and worthwhile on its own merits, and that some who may not have been able to connect with this challenging work can come to a fuller experience of it with some simple guidance. In addition to the "courses of a meal" idea, I suggest turning off your brain to the words as much as possible so as to allow the music to come into your inner self as pure emotion--from the desolation and loneliness of Beauty Queen to the sentimental yearnings of Twinkle. Allow yourself to FEEL the emotions with great empathy. *Maybe* one reason some don't get the fullness of Pele could be because they aren't the most empathetic people. The main narrative available with Pele is an emotional one, and this is where the greatest aspects of the journey dwell. Tune into the emotions as they present themselves and allow yourself to be sort of herded around emotionally by the music as it unfolds. You may find yourself on a journey you had not expected to have before, as you had no reason to know it existed. Tori has suggested before in at least one interview that people listen to her new music three or four times when it first comes out without thinking about the lyrics, and that they focus as much as possible on the music itself. I think this is wise advice, and I'm putting a finer point on it than that by suggesting the listener hear what the *emotion* of the music is saying. I don't think there's anything more important in her music than this, which is why I expressed strong feelings here recently on the topic of looking for some ultimate meaning of a Tori song in the lyrics at the exclusion of consideration of the music. [cobble, cobble] > anyway, i'm gonna shut up now. criticizing another artist's work in a > post, even mildly, feels a little weird... especially someone who's been > as inspirational and influential to me personally as tori has. I don't see any reason to feel weird that you aren't genuflecting to Pele or to Tori, Tanisha. If we all had only positive things to say about everything Tori ever played or released, then we would have little reason to want to be on this list. I love shocking some folks by saying I never liked Winter, knowing it's the favorite song of a lot of people. I've heard her do a few great performances of Winter live, though, despite my general feelings about the song. [cobble, cobble] On to replying to Nadyne. > I certainly hope not. We're all allowed to draw our own opinions about > each individual album, after all. :) Excuse, me, Nadyne. I said nothing about being "allowed" to have different opinions, and I don't appreciate being painted as an intolerant person by someone who, for whatever reason, has twisted my words. I've been posting on Tori Amos mailing lists for over eleven years, and I have *never* intimated that *anyone* not be allowed to have any opinion. If you or anyone else insists on thinking in terms of someone being allowed or not being allowed to have a certain opinion, that's your or their business, but it has nothing to do with how *I* think, and I will thank you to leave me out of it. Tanisha wondered if she was the only person who didn't really like Boys For Pele and I replied, "Dear God, I certainly hope so." I hope no one doesn't really like the Beatles album Revolver. Now, I'm sure some people don't and *can't* really like Revolver. (See above regarding music being a mysterious thing.) It happens that Pele and Revolver have helped provide me with intense emotional journeys which took me to rarely experienced areas of my inner self. In the instance of Pele, my life today would be far different than it would have been had I not been as moved as I was by it. I hope EVERYONE might have intense listening experiences such as I've had with those albums. If there's some reason it's bad for me to wish everyone were able to share in similar experiences, I have yet to hear what that is. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:56:23 EST From: TORIBREE@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Hi everyone, I'm a big fan here, although I don't often write. So I'd like to send a big thanks to everyone who does and keeps me posted on the latest Tori info, so thanks : ) Wondering if anyone can fill me in on thier knowledge of Tori's relationships between Trent Reznor of and Maynard, any knowledge will help, thank guys! Very curious... - -Theresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:40:50 -0500 From: Cyndi S Crawford Subject: Re: album preferences I haven't heard the leaked tracks off of Beekeeper or anything yet.. I'm being a good girl and waiting for (for SWB) the video(s) and album release and etc.. :) as some of you likely remember, I fell (and HARD) into Tori exactly three years ago on February 15th. the Hey Jupiter video is what snagged me. I started from the very beginning with Little Earthquakes and with every song I heard, the more I fell, and so on. it was a crazy experience. but my favorite albums.. that's DIFFICULT.. I'm including YKTR, by the way--and TOAL as well. Scarlet's Walk Tales Of A Librarian To Venus and Back Little Earthquakes Boys For Pele Under The Pink Strange Little Girls Y Kant Tori Read but of course, this varies--very much--by how I feel on a day-to-day (or weekly/monthly) basis.. tomorrow, I might be totally jonesing SLG and thinking SW was "meh". it really varies. and because of that, I cannot say "THIS album is THE BEST EVER". cuz in my opinion, they're ALL perfect in their own little ways. even YKTR. it's all about the moods/feelings I get from the songs, really. it took me a while to really get into Boys For Pele, but I really did get into it in the end.. so.. on one hand, it totally makes sense that it's not a favorite. (probably cuz of how damned abstract it tends to be) and on the other hand, it makes sense to me as to why it's "THE BEST EVER" to other people. because of how complex it is on every level. that said, I'm gonna go crawl back into Lurk City for a while. ;) Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford "I know we're dying / and there's no sign of a parachute / we scream in cathedrals / why can't it be beautiful / why does there gotta be a sacrifice?" -- Tori Amos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:26:27 EST From: ChaseTornadoes@aol.com Subject: Re: Preference for Albums based on when you discovered Tori I'm with Kurt sort of...I knew Tori since LE but I was like, oh ok a piano girl. Then Choirgirl made me a fan is my favorite album.....although Scarlet almost took it's place. I love every album dearly though, even SLG. But then there are other artists like Cyndi Lauper who I fell in love with back when Girls came out, but my all time favorite Cyndi CD is Sister of Avalon from '97 so I guess it works all different ways. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:32:14 EST From: ChaseTornadoes@aol.com Subject: My Favorite Albums in Order... I forgot to write this in my last mail about my fav. album period... Scarlet's Walk To Venus and Back (Live CD) Little Earthquakes Boys For Pele The Beekeeper Strange Little Girls To Venus and Back (Studio) Under The Pink ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V10 #19 *************************************