From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V10 #9 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Saturday, January 15 2005 Volume 10 : Number 009 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Boys for Pele songbook [Lisa071573@aol.com] Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel [Amanda Bradley ] Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel [Richard Handal ] Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel [Amanda Bradley Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel - --- Richard Handal wrote: >>I'm afraid my answer won't satisfy many people.<< You're right, it didn't. >>I believe that to concretize things such as this that are in the songs kills the possibility for one arriving at one's own metaphor and meaning.<< I have my own meaning(s) for Hotel. I simply wanted to know who Tori is singing about. It would allow the song, for me, to have even more meaning and clarification. >>This search for facts reminds me of how some people want to turn the Bible into newspaper accounts by finding out all the geographic and other references of who did and said what back in Bible times, but they seem invariably to be the same people who have lost the *meanings* of the stories. The lessons to be found in the stories aren't dependent upon their historical accuracy, and for many who would focus on the historical points, the knowledge of those things seems to come at the expense of their taking the lessons to heart.<< Okay... I do take Tori's lyrics to heart, in my own way. I'm not trying to solve a case here. Just curious. Reminds me of a button I have: The brainwashed never wonder. >>In fact, as cited here, she's given tools to use so people can come to their own sense with the song.<< And I have. >> The clear danger to me is for people to find out such details and to then hear the song and think, "Tori's singing about fill-in-the-blank," and then try to fit the whole song around whatever that was for the song in question and not let the song do its job<< That's not my intention at all. >>I say let the song do its job, and don't try to cage it or turn it to concrete. If you do that you've killed its value as art.<< I disagree with you here. Just because I have a different way of going about listening and relating to Tori's songs, does not mean that I am killing her art. >>Song lyrics are not poetry, they are song lyrics.<< In my opinion, some lyrics are like poetry. >>I don't know anything in this regard about this particular song, so if that's all you want then I'm afraid I can't help you.<< Yep, that's all I wanted. But that's not all I am interested about when concerning this song or any other Tori song. >>Thanks for the compliment of thinking of me, though.<< You're welcome. ===== Peace Out, Amanda ~~She's a girl out working her Trade/and she loses a little each day/to ghetto pimps and presidents/who try and arouse her turquoise serpents~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:22:04 +0000 From: "Tom xxxxx" Subject: RE: who's in the Hotel Amanda wrote: >it. I'm guessing it's about either Trent or Eric or >even Maynard (but I do believe that they have always >been strictly friends, too). OK, Tool fans, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Maynard gay? I could swear I've heard that. Does anyone know? If he isn't, then anal sex seems to preoccupy him--"Prison Sex," "4degrees." He and Tori should work together more often. Cheers, Tom M. "Can you Mr. Bush light the sage" - --- Tori Amos, "Indian Summer" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:40:23 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel Amanda posted: > I have my own meaning(s) for Hotel. I simply wanted > to know who Tori is singing about. It would allow the > song, for me, to have even more meaning and > clarification. I can understand being curious about things and people in the songs which may be personal to Tori. I'd be surprised if all of us on this list aren't. I think that to *need* to know such things to allow one's self to appreciate the songs is a mistake and misses the point of the art, which is why the very question set me off on a rant. I wasn't going to post in this thread until I was called on. I had a strong reaction and I shared it. I can understand wanting to know of the personal things that Tori had in mind with a song when she wrote it, but I definitely have the sense, from some heated arguments I've read through the years, that many people are not as thoughtful about the songs as you are, Amanda, and that many who want to know Tori's personal facts seek to define what they want to believe to be the only "valid" meaning of the song. Although I'm curious about some of the personal questions, I haven't been curious enough about this one to have devoted much time to trying to figure it out. Tori seems to have hidden it pretty well on purpose, too. Ultimately, I don't think knowing would help me like the song more, anyway. Open historical and cultural references, such as who Kaiser Wilhelm was, Anne Boleyn, etc., are things that are useful toward, even integral to understanding lyric content. The reason they are used as a lyric device is because they *are* information common among the listeners, at least the knowledge of them is *available* to the listeners, even if not everyone knows the references the first time they hear a song. A little poking around to find out more about such references can make one's experience of a lyric come more alive, or even make any sense at all. To feel the *need* to know who a specific person or persons were who may have inspired Tori to write a song, to me, reduces the experience of the song to reading a diary entry or something, unless one can keep all of that separated from one's own experience of a song. Many can. Many don't see the need. I'm enough of a pedant to encourage people to see the need. For me, hearing this kind of question always raises red flags. It speaks to a pet peeve I have pertaining to how people so often seem to want to deal with songs in a way that constricts them rather than allowing them to open up. It pushes one of *my* buttons. I think this is a great problem in the world in relation to many things going far beyond music. "You're gay? You must like dance music, be politically left-wing, and use expensive hair care products." Or whatever. I HATE when that happens! People want to put me into a box all day, *every* day. I've been majorly oppressed my entire life by such thinking, so this is not an intellectual exercise to me. I say, keep your mind open and experience what is in front of you rather than seeking to quickly shunt it off into a little box somewhere. Deal with the thing or the person on its or their own terms. It's about respect. Again, I would not presume to say that anyone in this thread was doing this kind of thing, but it's done all the time, and when it seems someone might be going in that direction and I'm asked to comment, expect an earful--virtual or otherwise. > >>I say let the song do its job, and don't try to cage > it or turn it to concrete. If you do that you've > killed its value as art.<< > > I disagree with you here. Just because I have a > different way of going about listening and relating to > Tori's songs, does not mean that I am killing her art. I did not say what you seem to think I did. Allow me to clarify. I say this in relation to any art: if it isn't allowed its own life and to breathe and wander off to unexpected places, it is dead. To concretize art is to kill it. I'm not saying that developing a specific idea about a work of art kills it, I *am* saying that to decide a work of art can only have one meaning to *everyone*, now and forever, and anyone who disagrees with what you think that meaning is kills it; it reduces the dimensionality of it and closes minds. Art is best when it *opens* minds. This is what most reminds me of the Bible thumper types. That's what they do to the great literature and stories of the Bible. I'm not saying that any particular person in any of the posts in this thread were doing that. I don't have ESP and wouldn't claim to know why someone asked a certain question on one specific occasion. I do think that one of the reasons people ask the "who did Tori write this song about" kind of question is that they are trying to come to what they think may be the one "true" meaning of a song, which I strongly feel to be a big mistake, and I'm gonna warn against doing that. > >>Song lyrics are not poetry, they are song lyrics.<< > > In my opinion, some lyrics are like poetry. In my opinion *most* lyrics are "like" poetry or are a type of poetry, but the good lyrics are more, so they are not *equivalent* to poetry: they were written and need to be experienced and considered in relation to the music, and if someone tries to get to the heart of such a lyric and they ignore the music in the process of doing that, I think that's a mistake. Try reading the lyrics to 1950s rock 'n' roll songs as if they were poetry as Steve Allen used to do for comic effect on his TV shows and you'll quickly get my point. Be bop a lula, she's my baby, Be bop a lula, I don't mean maybe, Be bop a lula, She's my baby doll, my baby doll, my baby doll. He sought to ridicule such lyrics, but in fact, he was an elitist who didn't get the point and couldn't see the value in such songs when considered with their particular type of music. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:36:07 -0800 (PST) From: Amanda Bradley Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman isn't in the Hotel - --- Richard Handal wrote: >> I think that to *need* to know such things to allow one's self to appreciate the songs is a mistake and misses the point of the art, which is why the very question set me off on a rant. I wasn't going to post in this thread until I was called on. I had a strong reaction and I shared it.<< I do not *need* the answer to my own question to appreciate Hotel or even know what the song means to me. Like I've said before, this song conjures up devine imagery in my head, and it's always a little different every time I hear it. I've wondered this exact question every sense this album came out, and thought that I would ask the list. I involved you, Richard, because I've talked personally with you in the past and admire the insight and knowledge that you can bring to the discussion. And I appreciate all that you have said. >> Tori seems to have hidden it pretty well on purpose, too.<< Yes she has, and obviously for a reason. The quote from AP 1998 answered enough for me to leave this question alone and be satisfied. >>Open historical and cultural references, such as who Kaiser Wilhelm was, Anne Boleyn, etc., are things that are useful toward, even integral to understanding lyric content. The reason they are used as a lyric device is because they *are* information common among the listeners, at least the knowledge of them is *available* to the listeners, even if not everyone knows the references the first time they hear a song. A little poking around to find out more about such references can, make one's experience of a lyric come more alive, or even make any sense at all.<< I absolutely see your point here, and I think it's valid. >>To feel the *need* to know who a specific person or persons were who may have inspired Tori to write a song, to me, reduces the experience of the song to reading a diary entry or something,<< I understand what you're saying here and how my question leads you to say it. Although, that was/is not my intention, ya know. >>I think this is a great problem in the world in relation to many things going far beyond music. "You're gay? You must like dance music, be politically left-wing, and use expensive hair care products." Or whatever. I HATE when that happens!<< As do I, and probably everyone on this list. Ofcourse I am not perfect, but I do not engage in this way of thinking. >>People want to put me into a box all day, *every* day. I've been majorly oppressed my entire life by such thinking, so this is not an intellectual exercise to me.<< I'm sorry that this happens to you. It happens to me, as well. I have facial piercings and tatoos, but nothing too graphic or out of the ordinary, and people treat me completely different than my friends who don't partake in that type of lifestyle. So, I know, and it's maddening. >>I *am* saying that to decide a work of art can only have one meaning to *everyone*, now and forever, and anyone who disagrees with what you think that meaning is kills it; it reduces the dimensionality of it and closes minds. Art is best when it *opens* minds.<< Absolutely. >>I do think that one of the reasons people ask the "who did Tori write this song about" kind of question is that they are trying to come to what they think may be the one "true" meaning of a song, which I strongly feel to be a big mistake, and I'm gonna warn against doing that.<< I feel that I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but yes, I see where you're coming from, and yes I agree with you. But, again, not my intention. >>they were written and need to be experienced and considered in relation to the music<< Point made. Thank you for clarifying your responses. From your last email, I felt that you were singling me out, attacking me if you will. But, I realize that you were not. With email, as you know, it is so hard to determine the tone in which to read what has been written. ===== Peace Out, Amanda ~~She's a girl out working her Trade/and she loses a little each day/to ghetto pimps and presidents/who try and arouse her turquoise serpents~ ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V10 #9 ************************************