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precious-things-digest Saturday, November 13 2004 Volume 09 : Number 115
Today's Subjects:
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Re: tori is a witch? [Violet <violet@torithoughts.org>]
Re: tori is a witch? ["yes said" <yessaid@hotmail.com>]
Re: tori is a witch? [Heather]
Re: tori is a witch? [Violet <violet@torithoughts.org>]
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:29:06 -0800
From: Violet <violet@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Re: tori is a witch?
Richard wrote:
>I also think that keeping in mind a broader definition of "witch" than the
>narrowest one is a more useful idea for this conversation.
Yes. Actually, I find it interesting that no one in this conversation has
mentioned Native American beliefs and practices as an explanation.
Tori speaks a bit about native and tribal peoples several times in the
interview and pre-show segments of the WTSF DVD, and Native Americans
frequently use the compass and the four points in their rituals, so when
Tori (and crew as well) gathered around a cross of tape that was marked
with the compass points before going onstage, Native-based ritual and
prayer was what *I* perceived her doing. Tori has mentioned working with
the Native American Medicine Wheel before, which is also a type of compass,
and there's a giant Medicine Wheel banner hanging behind her during the
show, so I believe there is strong evidence of Native American practices
rather than Wiccan.)
In Native American ritual, smudging is common and is sometimes done to the
four corners as part of a ritual, and I'm sure everyone here remembers the
theatres being filled with smudging smoke before the Scarlet's Walk Tour.
(I certainly do because I'm extremely allergic to burning sage and had a
pretty miserable time trying to breathe during those shows.) So there's at
least one specific Native American practice that Tori does that nearly all
of us have experienced firsthand.
Speaking of the compass in Native American tradition, a Native American
friend of mine (who incidentally is a major Toriphile) used to tell me how
his grandfather would pass the tribal stories down to him as a child, and
one of the stories was how, when the tribe would go out hunting for food,
when an animal was killed the body would be laid out using compass
directions with the head of the animal facing north (I believe he said it
was to the north, but it could have been west instead) and a "prayer" would
be said thanking the animal for giving it's life for the survival of the
tribe. Laying the animal out with its head to the north was to help the
spirit move into the afterlife.
>I think everyone would concede that if she weighs the same as a duck, she
>must be made of wood, and is therefore a witch. ;-)
Heh. Very funny, you. :)
Violet
xoxox
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:19:40 -0500
From: "yes said" <yessaid@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: tori is a witch?
Tori has talked very openly over the years about her spiritual beliefs.
There is a section on Toriphoria called "The Philosophy of Tori" where you
can read tons of quotes from Tori about this stuff. It seems that she is
very much like Joseph Campbell, in that she sees all the different religions
and myths as having "truth" in them, but also understands they're really
metaphors and shouldn't be taken literally. However, she has expressed
belief in the Great Spirit, of Native American myth. I think this might be
what Tori considers to be "God." Not a conscious being, but an energy force.
Tori is also known to be very much into Jungian psychology, which includes
the idea of the collective unconscious, something that could be said to fit
in with belief in a "great spirit" that everything and every being is a part
of. Read some books by Campbell and Jung, then some Tori interviews. They're
all tied together in a major way.
http://www.yessaid.com
Here are some excerpts:
Within the Christian/Muslim/Islamic/Jewish/Buddhist/Hindu structure, there
are truths that I believe in. But I come much more from the Native American
matriarchal thing. I dont belive in God in the way it works all over the
world. [Q - February 1996]
I believe in life force and that we can all tap into it. Its there for
anybody and everybody. Were all a part of it. [KSCA 101.9FM, Los Angeles -
February 9, 1996]
I believe in the Great Spirit. I believe Mohammad exists; I believe in
Buddha; I believe in Aphrodite; I believe in Rhiannon. All these beings
exist. But the Christian God - hes a bit cheeky. I do hang out with him a
lot, and I bring my grievances to him. Everybody has their relationship with
the divine, and all these beings are part of the divine. But we are, too.
Were all trying to learn our gig. A god is only a god. Theyre not a woman,
and they dont know what a woman feels. Of course, I think gods can desire
human women, and I think goddesses can desire human men. There is that need
for exchange. The hierarchy is the problem - even with deities. This is just
that deitys gig. Theyre a deity, and they might know more stuff, but what
Im feeling at this moment in this girls body is valid. [Alternative Press
- - July 1998]
My concept of the creator, isnt male or just female. Just is the key word
here. Its an energy. Its a force that doesnt exclude any kind of gender.
You know, I think its so beyond gender. [Tea with the Waitress - Promo
interview cd, 1994]
The God-force must be feminized, perceived more as a God-Goddess. Jesus, his
mother, His church all must be redefined. Especially a figure like Mary
Magdalene, who I and so many Christian women were taught to despise, because
she was a prostitute. Because of that we had great problems coming to terms
with the prostitute in ourselves, which again, is something the Church
teaches us to deny. That prostitute in woman is someone who is worthy of
honor and respect because she comes from a long line of Goddesses who
understood the balance between the sexual and the spiritual, who carried the
Blood Royal. But her positive energy-force has been re-appropriated by the
Church and denied. [Hot Press (Ireland) - February 23, 1994]
When people talk about God, then most western people mean the Christian God.
And when youre being raised in a family that just is convinced that this
God is the only true one, then it really exists to you. So, to me He exists.
God is drinking a margarita up there at this moment, Im sure of that. But I
dont think of Him as divine. I believe in the spiritual world. To me that
world is as real as you sitting in front of me. This is mostly because of my
Cherokee grandpa, who had an enormous influence on my life. I find the
divine mostly in non-western and age-old cultures, especially from the
Native Americans. [Oor (Dutch) - September 18, 1999]
I think if you have any bit of intelligence at all, you have to figure that
living this little life just doesn't get you to sit with Jesus and discuss.
I mean, it's about soul-growth, as far as I'm concerned. You keep just
traveling around and matter keeps reforming, and that just makes a lot of
logical sense. [KROQ, Los Angeles - February 9, 1996]
There are several ways to climb a mountain and there are many paths to come
down again. Even if you know them all, sometimes you reach the summit only
to find that there are a hundred more mountaintops to conquer. That outlook
is sacred to me. Wherever our life force is coming from, it couldnt have
originated from one particular religion. I grew up with the thesis theres
only one God, one religion, one road to the top. Very shortsighted! I think
every religion contains little pieces of magic. Use it to shape your own
truth. [Oor (Dutch) - April 18, 1998]
Even if you dont read history or you arent interested in anything that
happened before the 60s, there are reasons why we think the way we do.
There are reasons why people are going crazy right now. (Paraphrasing Joseph
Campbell) A culture that doesnt know its mythology is powerless. Some kids
show up at my shows crawling out of their bodies. Theyd turn their power
over to anything; thats cause they dont know the tools to go in. [Spin -
March 1996]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:00:09 -0600
From: Heather
Subject: Re: tori is a witch?
>Yes. Actually, I find it interesting that no one in this conversation has
>mentioned Native American beliefs and practices as an explanation.
(I didn't mention it because I thought it was obvious. Tori has spoken of
this *so* often.) Native American beliefs are defined as pagan because (1)
they have more than one god/dess, and (2) they came before Christianity.
>I believe in the Great Spirit. I believe Mohammad exists; I believe in
>Buddha; I believe in Aphrodite; I believe in Rhiannon. All these beings
>exist. But the Christian God - hes a bit cheeky. I do hang out with him a
>lot, and I bring my grievances to him. Everybody has their relationship
>with the divine, and all these beings are part of the divine. But we are, too.
Believing in more than one god and/or goddess is part of the definition of
pagan. The statement that we, too, are divine is also pagan. ("Namaste" is
an example of this.) Pagan handfastings have the groom look upon his bride
as the goddess and vice versa.
>I think if you have any bit of intelligence at all, you have to figure
>that living this little life just doesn't get you to sit with Jesus and
>discuss. I mean, it's about soul-growth, as far as I'm concerned. You
>keep just traveling around and matter keeps reforming, and that just makes
>a lot of logical sense.
Reincarnation is another of the typical pagan concepts.
>There are several ways to climb a mountain and there are many paths to
>come down again. Even if you know them all, sometimes you reach the summit
>only to find that there are a hundred more mountaintops to conquer. That
>outlook is sacred to me. Wherever our life force is coming from, it
>couldn't have originated from one particular religion. I grew up with the
>thesis there's only one God, one religion, one road to the top. Very
>shortsighted! I think every religion contains little pieces of magic. Use
>it to shape your own truth.
This is also pagan.
The simplest definition of what a pagan is: someone who believes that god
must also have a goddess (and believes in the existence of numerous gods
and goddesses, although many pagans choose a particular god and goddess
with whom they most identify ... pagans also may call on Jesus, his mother,
or Mary Magdalene as the god and goddess) because creation is impossible
without the feminine aspect.
Of the major world religions, Hinduism is the only one which is pagan
because it has multiple gods and goddesses.
Most pagans today come out of the major world religions and into paganism
because they believe *something* -- ruling out atheism and agnosticism --
but they don't believe there is only one way, or that that there is only
one way which is right for everyone.
Many of the pagans I know were raised having Christianity rammed down their
throats, and so they reject Christianity outright. I am not such a
pagan. I celebrate Yule with my husband and Christmas with his family (and
since the majority of Christian traditions originated from pagan
traditions, I don't find this uncomfortable, distasteful, or "prohibited"
by my religion). Like Tori, I see value in all religions, although I don't
agree with everything in any one religion. The main, organized religions
all boil down to one basic thing in my own cauldron: The Golden Rule. It
is a very worthwhile message.
Also like Tori, I view the books of all the major religions as
mythology. I have read *all* of these books cover to cover; I read the
Bible twice. I do not know it well enough to quote it, but I do know it
well enough to find extensive contradictions in it ... I agree with Tori's
saying the Christian God is "cheeky," although I would choose other words
to describe that god myself.
In her actual first album, the line of one song speaks volumes to me,
"Maybe I'm a witch." This is a song Tori has chosen to bring back into her
current repertoire, an action which also speaks volumes to me. I think, at
the very least, that she does not mind if people wonder if she is a witch,
or consider her to be such if that message speaks to them.
Heather, reluctantly posting again (and wondering if any forthcoming
personal attacks should be forwarded to the list owner?)
Click here once a day to feed an animal for free:
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Bush is a muggle.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:49:22 -0800
From: Violet <violet@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Re: tori is a witch?
Heather wrote:
>>Yes. Actually, I find it interesting that no one in this conversation has
>>mentioned Native American beliefs and practices as an explanation.
>
>(I didn't mention it because I thought it was obvious. Tori has spoken of
>this *so* often.) Native American beliefs are defined as pagan because (1)
>they have more than one god/dess, and (2) they came before Christianity.
Yes, Native American beliefs qualify as pagan. However, the statement that
started this thread was "Tori is a witch," and that is what the bulk of
responses have revolved around. If the original statement had been "Tori
is a pagan," I don't think many people would have argued.
You said in a response on the subject to someone else, "She *does*
subscribe to many of the beliefs and practices of pagans, which is why *I*
think she is a witch."
My argument is not that she isn't pagan, but that "pagan" does not
necessarily equal "witch." There are other options.
What I am saying is that, obvious or not, Tori's Native American background
and belief system would have been important to mention in this case.
When Tori identifies with witches, I don't believe it is the modern aspect
of Wiccans and witchcraft that she is relating to; I believe she is
relating to the green women of past centuries who were persecuted as
heretics, and she's made it pretty clear that she does see herself as
heretical.
Violet
xoxox
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End of precious-things-digest V9 #115
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