From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V5 #225 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Saturday, September 30 2000 Volume 05 : Number 225 Today's Subjects: ----------------- more on selling ["Daisy Dead Petals" ] Re: selling boots [bocce ball ] Upside Down & Take To The Sky fanzines ["Robert Greene" ] re: selling boots ["Melissa" ] Re: selling boots [ToriLiscious@cs.com] Any Tori baby sightings? ["The Huntress" ] Lyrics to live Iieee??? [ToriphileMaria@aol.com] Tori "Forgiven" and Alanis ["The Huntress" ] Natashya Lorien's Birthday Profile [Twinkle018@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:12:53 -0500 From: "Daisy Dead Petals" Subject: more on selling Well, the rmta site is down, so I cant determine prices that way...drat! Can anyone tell me anything about the "collectability" of promos? I know that some people collect them exclusively. I also know, from working at a radio station, that selling promos is illegal as well. Why is Tori stuff going for less at this particular time, like /nad said? Is it because Tori doesnt have new material out right now? I am still selling stuff--or will trade for choirgirl era boots. Yes I know I am depriving Ian of diapers that way, but I am investing in his enjoyment of quailty music. The Mozart Effect, you know. ;) Email me if you are interested in dealing. Daisy Melanie loopgaroo@g2a.net "The way I see it, the men that I'm with, whoever they are, it's like look, you have to accept that I like ice cream, and I know it shows up on my hips but if you can't accept that, then leave.Go away. Toodles. It's non-negotiable." -- Tori Amos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:32:32 -0400 From: bocce ball Subject: Re: selling boots when we last left our heroes, Mysterilady2001@cs.com exclaimed: >~~ A Tori Bootleg Story ~ > >The story goes like this: Tori was upset because she'd just been informed of >the first widely available illegal boot of her playing live. A lovely silver >backed disc called "A Kiss On The Glass". Outraged, Tori dubbed it "Kiss My >Ass". for the record, here's the first record of the "kiss my ass" story from a post to the really-deep-thoughts mailing list by melissa caldwell, one of the really-deep-thoughts fanzine editors: Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 23:34:04 -0400 (EDT) From: mdc@bsbbs.columbus.oh.us (Melissa D. Caldwell) Subject: Tori's word on bootlegs Organization: The Big Sky BBS (+1 614 864 1198) Tonight we received a call from Tori's personal assistant. Tori asked her to call to see if we needed anything from her for the next issue of the fanzine. Since the fanzine is already chock full and at the printer, there was nothing that we needed immediately. Besides, the last thing I want to do is distract Tori from her work. While we talked, I could hear Tori singing in the background. It was just a tape, and I caught bits and pieces of sound, but nothing that I could really describe for you. Judy mentioned that Tori has a copy of the bootleg, Kiss on the Glass. They have dubbed it, "Kiss My Ass". Tori is absolutely against this type of recording and does not want her fans to waste their money on it. Tori is very concerned that a fan might unknowingly buy this disc, thinking it is legit. Because Tori is so meticulous about the sound and presentation of her music, to have this kind of recording out there is a slap in the face. She does not want her fans to buy this CD. [snip] woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:20:25 -0700 From: "Robert Greene" Subject: Upside Down & Take To The Sky fanzines Hellos, anyone out there still subscribed to either of these? I've been looking to get some info and would like to subscribe to either/both of them. Thanks for the info. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:18:06 -0400 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: re: selling boots At 05:22 AM 9/28/2000 EDT, Mysterilady2001@cs.com wrote: >MysT's rant starts here ---> I am going to have to take a stand here against >what Julie said on principal. The very fact that there are boots in existence >is the infringement against Tori, NOT that anyone is taking money from her, >Spivak, EW or Atlantic. Besides the bonus live tracks Tori has put on various >singles it wasn't until TVAB that there was authentic live audio tracks >available. If you get a high end bootleg company like Kiss The Stone who >manufactured the original boot of the Concert for RAINN, yes the boots back >is silver but so what? It was STILL illegally recorded, smuggled really. Then >they pressed her music without her consent, added her image, name and title >without her consent and sold it without her consent. Well, shoot ya think >they give a dime of the profits to RAINN? I think not. ALL boots are illegal. >ALL BOOTS. You can say whatever you like about trading trees and the Tori >boot list but it's still illegal what you are doing. PERIOD. I didn't hear anyone arguing legalities. Personally (and I'm obviously biased here, but y'all probably know that), I see a huge ethical difference between a bootlegger making money off of Tori's work, and me spreading her music around. Even the recording industry recognizes the difference between me and a commercial bootlegger. They don't go after the guy at home making boots, 'cause they know he's not making a profit. They -do- go after the guy who's pressing bootlegs, 'cause they know he -is- making a profit. Tori and her people are completely aware of most of the venues available for selling boots, the Tori-boot mailing list included, and they just don't care 'cause we're not making any money off of it. (And, for that matter, they're quite well aware that we're self-policing, and making money off of boots just doesn't stand a chance in any trading community.) If you're going to go off on a high horse about legalities, I hope that your much-lauded Tori collection doesn't include any promos in it. They're illegal to buy/sell, too; and the buyer is just as likely to get into trouble over that as the seller is. >You can come >down on folks selling boots on eBay all you like but anything they are doing >is no worse than what a bootlegger or a trader does. Read the copyright >infringement laws. It doesn't just say it's illegal to manufacture and SELL >bootlegs, its illegal to possess, copy, trade, show publicly or distribute >another persons copyrighted work without their consent. I'm quite impressed that you have managed to condense all of copyright law, which thousands of attorneys specialize in, into two sentences. Too bad such an oversimplification ignores the reality of how the law operates and evolves. There has not been, to my knowledge, a -single- instance of a trader who has been arrested and prosecuted. Sellers are arrested and prosecuted, but not traders. (There was a case of a trader-turned-seller getting arrested a few years ago, but the guy was selling cassette copies of Springsteen boots for US$10-$20 each.) If you can provide a citation for such a case, I'd certainly appreciate it. >Just because Tori >performs publicly does not make her work public domain. It's still HERS. She >owns it. Don't kid yourself, somebody somewhere gets plenty of profits from >those bootlegs that you covet. Commercial bootleggers have almost died out. There are certainly not nearly as many new commercial bootlegs being made, and they're being made in significantly smaller quantities. There are no known commercial boots of Tori's 1999 tour (although it was, by and large, trivial to sneak recording gear into the show), and less than 10 of the 1998 tour. Compare that to the dozens from each of the prior tours. Demand for Tori items - -certainly- hasn't decreased, as you and your self-appointed queen of eBay status should well know. >They don't sneak recording devices into shows >for cheap thrills ya know. AND when found out during a show or caught leaving >they ARE arrested. It's a felony. Provide a citation for this, please. Since you're an expert in copyright law, you should trivially be able to provide the federal statutes in question. If a taper is caught (which is a rare event in and of itself), s/he is almost never prosecuted. The band and the venue just doesn't care enough to fuck with it, and they largely know that someone who is taping is a fan. >You think they go through all that for the >love of Tori? HA! No way - It's for the lust of the greenback. For -traders- (not bootleggers), the money isn't the object. The recording itself is the whole point. I can name for you literally hundreds of people who have sunk $10k and more into their recording gear. Why? 'Cause they want to and can. :) They do it to produce the most superior recording that they possibly can. And for those traders, they are absolutely against making a profit off of it. They put a lot of work and effort into getting the best possible recording, but they don't make a dime off of it. Thankfully, some artists (Phish, Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, Cowboy Junkies, and others) recognize this, and allow taping at their shows. They recognize that such attention can only do them good. Perhaps, once upon a time when bootleggers could sell a commercial product and make some sort of profit on it, what you are talking about was true. However, especially as recording technology gets smaller, more portable, and available to a larger consumer base, it is no longer true. Your statements show a vast ignorance of the reality of taping and trading. >Most folks are >reluctant to get a CDR from just someone because the quality gets to be less >and less as boots copy boots copy boots. So, no thanks, I don't want a copy >of the boot cdr that you copied from Joe's boot cdr who copied from Sam's >boot cdr who copied from Jennifer's boot cdr who SAYS theirs came right from >the original Last Temptation of Tori BOOTLEG. Maybe you wanted to know why I >don't collect boots, maybe you didn't, but there ya go I told ya anyway. I'm quite glad that you don't collect boots, because your ignorance of the technology available and in widespread use is stunning. For someone who claims to know so much, and speaks in such a matter-of-fact tone, you're entirely incorrect. A CD-R boot made on a computer is an exact digital clone. Barring errors (which aren't common), there is no difference between the original silver bootleg and any copy. DAT is the same way, although not largely used in Tori trading circles. Minidisc, cassette, and video do have the generational loss that you mention, but the first two are pretty rare now that CD burners are dirt cheap and easy to use. Video suffers from extreme generational loss, but now DVD-ROMs are starting to get out there. It's likely only a matter of time before DVD burners and blanks come down in price. They're available now for those who have to be on the cutting edge of technology and have a few grand in their pocket that they need to burn. And given that eBay is the issue here, most of the bootlegs sold on eBay are just CD-R copies -- either a CD-R copy of a commercial bootleg, or a CD-R copy of a show that was never pressed as a silver commercial boot. You're not getting anything different on eBay than your "copy of Joe's copy of Sam's copy of Jennifer's copy of the original". You're just paying more because you're uneducated. I certainly know that I've seen fan boots (that is, a show that a fan taped and transferred to CD-R themselves, not for profit) sold on eBay. Hell, some of 'em have come from my master recordings, and you better believe that I had those auctions shut down. >I >have NO issue with anyone putting a boot on eBay and asking a fair price. >What I HATE is folks putting boot YKTR's on eBay claiming they are the REAL >deal and scamming Toriphiles. Now this is the only thing you've said that I can agree with you on. [snip another ignorant discussion of "supply and demand"] >If a person sells a cdr boot on >eBay and asks 7.99 for it I'd consider that a fair price. It is then up to >the BUYER to figure out how much it's worth to them and bid accordingly. If >you have a right to your Tori boot trading list/tree then others have a right >to buy such items in whatever fashion they feel. The issue here is information. For the most part, the buyer is entirely unaware that the exact same product is available elsewhere for significantly lower. I know I've never heard someone say, "gosh, thanks for that information, but I'd really prefer to pay $50 for this CD-R boot from some moron on eBay". >I don't need you or anyone >else to be my Mommy and get the bad bootlegger cdr making wannabe's off eBay. >Maybe some folks don't mind getting a copy of a copy of a copy but I detest >it. I'd rather pay KTS for a clean boot than get a crappy, hissy, choppy, >fading volume Son of a Son of a Son of a Boot. The fact that you said there >are people amongst you that "patrol" eBay looking for non-silver boots to >report appalls me. Am I living in Orwell's 1994? George was ten years earlier. >Are you "Big Brother"??? Who >appointed you Queen? If you want to educate the bidders by sending them an >email telling them about the Tori boot list that's one thing, but to take it >upon yourselves to right all perceived wrongs is ludicrous. It also infringes >on peoples freedom. I'm NOT saying Hey Everyone Lets All Bootleg, Copy 'Em >and Sell 'Em! ... but I am saying there are many paths here. Let the person >walking choose their own. No harm, no foul Julie. >But, that's just my opinion ~ I could be wrong. (LOL! DM style, I just >couldn't resist!) That's an amusing about-face. First you say how illegal it is, and then you say that anyone doing something about it is infringing on freedom. You can't have it both ways. If it's illegal for me to trade, and illegal for you to sell, we can't possibly be having any infringement on freedom if it's all illegal anyway. I don't ask for much (not even learning what paragraphs are all about), but I do ask for consistency. Especially in the same post. :) /nad ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:41:37 -0400 From: "Melissa" Subject: re: selling boots I'm on digest, so you'll have to excuse me if this has already been addressed: :Besides the bonus live tracks Tori has put on various :singles it wasn't until TVAB that there was authentic live audio tracks :available. Actually, Tori has released live tracks from every tour *except* that in support of To Venus And Back. 1992: Crucify Pt. 2 w/ four live tracks 1994: Past the Mission Pt 1 & 2 with seven different live tracks in total 1996: Hey Jupiter EP w/ 3 live tracks 1998: (released in 99) a live album with six additional live bee sides Of course, I'm just pointing that out to be nitpicky =] :So, no thanks, I don't want a copy :of the boot cdr that you copied from Joe's boot cdr who copied from Sam's :boot cdr who copied from Jennifer's boot cdr who SAYS theirs came right from :the original Last Temptation of Tori BOOTLEG. [snip] :I'd rather pay KTS for a clean boot than get a crappy, hissy, choppy, :fading volume Son of a Son of a Son of a Boot. Assuming the traders know what they're doing, you can obtain a bit for bit digital clone of a show on CD-R. Then again, its up to you who you trust to do it right. But what makes you think the bootleg companies give two shits about you? Some of the things they've put out on silver discs have errors, horrible sound quality, are TAO and such. Wouldn't a fan, with an emotional investment in preserving a live performance, be more likely to take time to make sure their tape turns out well? I'm not going to get into an arguement about the ethics of selling boots, as this is already wavering off topic. ^..^ Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:33:31 EDT From: ToriLiscious@cs.com Subject: Re: selling boots thanks so much for the post, nad.. i was too lazy to get into it and write so much.. i have invested a little under $1000 in recording equipment so i can record every one of Tori's shows. I don't sell this stuff. I do it because, even though I can go out and buy a live recording of Tori, it's never the same as when you're there. I have a lot of friends near me that are huge Tori fans, and we like to just have a pot luck at my house while listening to the Tori i've recorded. To tell you the truth, I've never even thought about selling these recordings, because 1) I'm too damn lazy to record a bunch of seperate copies and 2) I'm really selfish, and if you want to hear her so bad, go to her show. =) >AND when found out during a show or caught leaving >they ARE arrested. It's a felony. I got caught once recording at her show. But, all the shows I've ever been to has been tons of people at the front going crazy and dancing, and I'd like to see anyone try to get in there and take away my stuff. AND when found out, they asked me a few times to turn it off, then eventually just ignored it. >They don't sneak recording devices into shows >for cheap thrills ya know. yes, I do sneak recording devices into shows for cheap thrills. And it's kind of a rush listening to something you recorded, ESPECIALLY if it's of the Goddess herself. >You think they go through all that for the >love of Tori? HA! No way - It's for the lust of the greenback. It's insulting that you put everyone that records Tori into the category that is so ignorant of her. I DO go through all that for the love of Tori. For MY love of Tori. (Is that selfish? I don't care.) If I had such a lust for the greenback, I wouldn't have spent so much money on all that recording equipment. I know you're a huge Tori fan, Myst, and of course, i respect it, but c'mon, please think, or at least ask some questions of all these other fans before you rant. Stuff, Micah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:18:57 GMT From: "The Huntress" Subject: Any Tori baby sightings? I was just wondering if anybody has seen any recent articles on Tori and/or her new baby in magazines lately? The Huntress _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:25:43 EDT From: ToriphileMaria@aol.com Subject: Lyrics to live Iieee??? Hello everyone, I was just listening to my live boots from 98, and I cant figure out what tori is saying after the added lines: I know you understand, understand, the way I feeeeeeeeel...?????????? then wahat? Im not very good on figuring out song lyrics to alot of artists... tori makes it even harder! I think it might have something to do with me being bilingual and not deciphering the phenomes right or something... Any help on this would be appreciated. thanks!! ~~MaRia "Give me Peace, Love, & a Hard Cock." ~Tori Wanna Trade? http://www.arches.uga.edu/~mariaa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:17:46 GMT From: "The Huntress" Subject: Tori "Forgiven" and Alanis I always thought about this but never mentioned it... In the 5-1/2 weeks tour, (I never went and I heard that there were rivalries and stuff) however, Alanis Morisette's song "Forgiven" has always intrigued me as a good cover song for Tori or a duet for both of them. Does anyone else think this is a good idea? Of course, I don't know if some of the fans would have appreciated a duet between the two of them, but the lyrics of "Forgiven" are so Toriperfect. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:30:22 EDT From: Twinkle018@aol.com Subject: Natashya Lorien's Birthday Profile Hi to all~ I just wanted to pass on this neat birthday profile for Tori's daughter. I have this book called "The Secret Language of Birthdays: Personology Profiles for Each Day of the Year" by Gary Goldschneider and Joost Elffers. Many of you probably have this book or one like it... but, I thought I'd share w/ the others, Natashya's profile. So, here it is: September Fifth The Day of the Fanciful Sovereign Those born on Sept. 5 like to use their active and alert minds to dream up the most imaginative and romantic plans. They are very adept indeed at making such ideal notions real, but unfortunately can be highly unrealistic about their degree of success. Prone to excessive pride or indulgence, they may lose touch with reality and hence be afflicted with all kinds of maladies when they least expect them. A recurrent theme in the lives of some Sept. 5 people is that of working against themselves in a self-defeating pattern. Those born on this day can really get caught up in their regal egos and bury themselves in what they are doing. Consequently they may not only lose sight of what others think of them but also what is actually going on in their heart and subconscious. On the other hand, Sept. 5 people are capable of wonderful fantasies of all sorts. Although their personal lives may appear quite ordinary to some, what they surround themselves with, their creations or acquisitions, are often truly amazing. Thus they can feel like a king or queen in a fairytale palace. This magical world they create can hold the deepest meaning for them; unfortunately, their personal human values can get lost in the shuffle. At times it may seem that no one knows what Sept. 5 people are really like away from their romantic image, least of all Sept. 5 people themselves. Obviously what is needed, if those born on this day are to proceed further in their psychological and spiritual evolution, is that they distinguish between fancy and reality. They would do well to invest more time in themselves, and give sober thought to the state of their lives. Painfully, they may have to strip themselves down and start building a more realistic ego all over again. Sept. 5 people can make entertaining and enjoyable friends. Although they also have a serious side, having fun is important to them; they tend to do everything with a twinkle in their eye. They are most often of a giving and considerate nature, but can sometimes withdraw their affection without warning. Their motivations can thus be easily misunderstood. One criticism of Sept. 5 people is that they only associate with certain individuals because of their attractiveness at a given time. Really, only the least highly evolved of those born on this day are so superficial or calculating; most Sept. 5 people are remarkably innocent and childlike, and therefore gravitate to those who they feel care about them and offer true friendship. There is more on Numbers, Tarot, Health, Advice, and Meditation... but, that was the profile itself. Interesting... I wonder how much insight this is to Mark and Tori's little girl. I should also put Tori's profile on here... I've never looked it up before. Anyhow, I hope you all enjoyed that. I supposed it's indirectly Tori related. Desiree ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V5 #225 *************************************